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Gotham I am so worried for that door’s friends and family. palmvos well. if it was a Tolkien door we would know and could possibly interview the door’s friends and family. Kid Chaos Now she has to guess the password. 😎 https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&noapp=1&v=UZzwaVerraA palmvos upvoting yourself….. speak friend then enter indeed. i see no runes on the door. zellgato Did I miss a widget? How are they doing this? Did.. they just assume falling asleep would let you do this? …is her superpower falling asleep on command? Cause I could not just sleep instantly. and it isn’t like Feral could knock her out toget her unconcious quick.. the brain wave knocked em out for (who knows how long) but.. how are they just.. doing this? Is the implication that everyone nearby that is sleeping (this late at night.. so i imagine many) are just.. filing around his brain? I mean I know that was what they were worried about. Just seems.. odd? that they went straight to “I can sleep instantly” or… did I miss when Mega Girl had some sorta brain jacking in ability? elilla I guess the projection he made earlier is a sort of telepathic invitation or opening (for Alison only – “I didn’t see me there, I saw you”). Probably because he 1) actually trusts Alison and 2) is desperate. zellgato That would make sense. I suppose he probably sucked her in when she lowered her metnal guard maybe Patrick_GETS_me These are all excellent questions. I don’t think Allison is going to sleep… after all, she and Feral both just had the vision of her at the gates while both were wide awake. But you’re right that we’ve seen no evidence of her ability to control what happens in the visions. It’s been described as Patrick “broadcasting” visions/thoughts, never that he’s opening up a world that Allison can actually move around in. And yes, WHY are they doing this in the middle of New York City? Why doesn’t Allison fly them all to a remote, secure location? CityFace Because “I have no idea what I’m doing” – ? Emily Smith because if another vision hits at an inopportune moment at least 2/3 of them are at the bottom of the pacific ocean or whatever also you shouldn’t move patients with head injuries Lance Allen My assumption apparently differs from everyone else reading, in that only the biodynamic are receiving the broadcasts. Alison was sitting right next to Clevin when she got the first ones, and he was unaffected. zellgato That’d make sense as well. Though, i took that not to be these kind of brodacasts but the psychic boy “pinging” her to find her location and get to her. For whatever reason this turns out to be Weatherheight Nice insight – that totally didn’t cross my mind. People are extra clever today… which is interesting. David Gillon Maybe we just didn’t see the hour and half of Feral asking “Are you asleep yet?” zellgato That actually makes me sad! haha that’d be hilarious Gotham If this isn’t a reference to A Dream of a Lifetime then I don’t know what is. Kid Chaos And Inception, and Dreamscape, and that episode of Sliders…the list goes on and on. 😎 https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&noapp=1&v=fJwjLYRPxJY elilla Feral is SUCH a bestie. She’s like the anti-Wolverine. Zac Caslar My theory is that Wolverine is very much a big-brother figure and that he cares about personal loyalty and the protection of the vulnerable far more than rank or expertise. Qualities Feral also displays in abundance. Walter There’s certainly textual evidence for that, see countless mentor situations. There is also, of course, evidence to the contrary, which posits him as a vicious killer unconstrained by society’s rules. Problem of someone in that many books, it is really hard for them to have a consistent character. Zac Caslar No reason both these assessments are incompatible. Wolverine respects Professor X and disrespects Cyclops who is given authority by Professor X. That kind of selective acknowledgement of authority is extremely internally consistent with him. Wolverine likes soldiers and doesn’t like cops. If the X-men have parallels to the Civil Rights movements than that contrast is hardly out of place. It’s also possible to be a compassionate guardian of one group and a merciless killer of several others. Wolverine generally doesn’t attack any person of group who doesn’t attack him first, but once they do they’ve made a gamble with their life. That he might be decisively more deadly than them doesn’t matter to him; they took that chance when they decided on violence. Weatherheight Really excellent analysis. Great job, Zac Caslar. Seriously, really, really nice. Zac Caslar Well thanks for saying so. I’ll try to keep the encores to a minimum. M. Alan Thomas II I’d add that his view of being attacked also seems to vary with perceived motivation. Much likelier to leave you alive if you attacked him for a reason he can understand and respect. Similarly, standing up to him and attacking him can earn his respect in certain situations, although that doesn’t always leave him less inclined to kill you. It’s interesting to see how they’ve varied all of these attributes with his various “children” (clones) and their clones. Zac Caslar Yeah, the idea of children being distillations of their parents really comes back to taunt Logan over and over. IIRC in the comics his clone son is a despair-crippled drug addict mostly (un)motivated by nihilism and a hatred of Logan for being why he exists. Even in the movie X-24 is, IMO, a kind of stark reflection of how Wolverine appears to other people: terrifying, hair-trigger murderous instinct stripped of all pretense of honor or mercy or chivalry and given terrible tools of death by madmen. That’s the Wolverine who tears the guts out of a random Hellfiire Club minion; that minion can’t be expected to picture the Wolverine who rides Jubilee’s butt to get her math homework finished instead of going maximum mallrat. Incidentally Logan’s enough of a love’em-and-leave’m kinda guy that I’ve occasionally wondered where all the fatherless children of his are hidden. Or maybe there’s an aussie lorry driver somewhere with a truly heroic liver and a cheerful willingness to get anything to anywhere because she’s only afraid of two things: getting stiffed on a delivery, and nothing. Not to get too sidetracked by non-SFP material, heh. Let it suffice to note that much of the core character informs Tara very finely. Mechwarrior Regarding Wolverine’s missing bastard children: one year, Sabertooth tricked them all into attacking him. They’re now dead because somehow Wolverine forgot to use his superhuman sense of smell to determine that they were related to him until after he’d ginsued them all. Dakon, who’s evil wasn’t created until after that incident, is Logan’s only living offspring. Zac Caslar Maaaaaximum facepalm. Well, that’s wretched. Good job, Marvel. Thanks for bringing me up to speed. M. Alan Thomas II Daken’s been killed at least twice, once by Wolverine. He’s back again, though. I suspect he and Laura are the two the writers actually want around, and the rest was just a ham-handed cleaning house. M. Alan Thomas II What do you think about the time Molly Hayes punched him out of a church and across the street? Now THERE was a series that was all about children and their parents! Lisa Izo Well… he scared her and threatened with his claws 🙂 Therefore he had to be punched. Mechwarrior The big issue is that often, Logan’s portrayal is hypocritical without any acknowledgement given to that, like his willingness to lead a black ops team for the X-Men but getting on Cyclops’s case for the same thing, or the way he criticizes other people for being killers while making excuses for all the people he’s killed and it’s done in a way that makes it clear that the writer thinks we should agree with him. Zac Caslar Hmm. I see a thread there, though, and that’s him taking on things he doesn’t want the others to do. “Yeah, I kill. You shouldn’t. Yeah I command killers in deniable operations – and you shouldn’t!.” He gets on his various charges about smoking in the same way. “Yeah I smoke and drink and fart on the mansion’s elevator panels when I’m drunk. Don’t do that kid; only assholes do that.” Definitely agree that there’s hypocrisy present in wanting to choose for someone else to not take on the burden of things they might agree are necessary, but that’s kinda the borderline been chivalry and chauvinism; that’s being an older brother. Comes with a side of Martyr Complex as well, honestly “-I do it so you don’t have to.” That’s also a fair bit of being self-destructive and coping with self-loathing; “well I’ve done so much horrible crap what’s one more premeditated murder when I can justify so many already?” Cue smoking, drinking, womanizing, etc and the consequential hypocrisy about why not to do those things. But there’s also wisdom in that, in, for example, not needing another World War to hash out monarchy and fascism as legitimate forms of government. Or to restart colonialism so that India can go through the same devastating expansion and collapse cycle England did. Killing in general is a similar quandary with the ultimate question being “can we ever truly not choose violence and survive?” For Logan, for a big brother, the answer is “for now I will do you won’t have to.” Mechwarrior His excuse for why he was calling Cyclops out for killing Professor X (which was self defense, because Professor X was trying to kill him) was that none of the people he’d ever killed had mattered. This was while Northstar was standing next to both of them. Who Wolverine once killed while he was brainwashed, evil, and working for the Hand. He gave faulty intelligence (which he knew was bad) to Captain America, leading to the events of Avengers Vs X-Men. Cyclops got all the blame. He wasn’t doing a “I’m being the bad guy so other people don’t have to”, he was just being a jerk to Cyclops because that’s been the power dynamic in X-Men since Jean Grey died (because apparently she was the only character capable of recognizing that he was being unreasonable and calling him on it). Zac Caslar So that happened, right. Welp, that’s Wolvester being an asshole pretty much for it’s own sake; acknowledged and respected. a person More like for the sake of the writers who either aren’t good at their jobs or can’t possibly be expected to keep up with the insane web of continuity that permeates every single character in the Marvel or DC universes. Arkone Axon And… as I said elsewhere, this is why I’m not a fan of Wolverine. a person “was that none of the people he’d ever killed had mattered. This was while Northstar was standing next to both of them. Who Wolverine once killed” Wolverine true savage, throwing bare shade. Prodigal The Scarlet Witch nearly committed genocide with that “No more mutants” thing, but she’s worthy of forgiveness. Wolverine has killed more people than influenza, but hes worthy of forgiveness. Xavier’s dark side nearly murdered the team he created several times over, but he’s not just worthy of forgiveness, everybody calls him the best man they ever knew. Cyclops killed Xavier in self-defense while possessed by an entity that has been repeatedly proven to go out of control (to the point of consuming an entire star system because it was hungry), and he’s the one that everybody says can never be forgiven. Hell with all that. Mechwarrior Magneto: killed plenty of humans over the years and has tried to commit genocide more than once. Nearly killed the X-Men on multiple occasions. Shows the tiniest bit of apology and is welcomed to the team. And let’s not even bring up the times Sabertooth or the Juggernaut joined up with them. Yeah, they might as well just hang up a sign saying that they’ll forgive you for anything, unless your name is Scott Summers. Arkone Axon You know, I realized what Cyclops’ whole schtick really is, while watching “Red Versus Blue.” He’s like the character Simmons – a nerd. A total geek. A teacher’s pet who studies hard and takes everything serious and follows all the rules. …And that’s why I like him so much. That’s what you WANT in a team leader. When you’re about to go into a fight with a bunch of giant robots specifically designed to counter your abilities and then kill or capture you, you want someone who takes it seriously. You want someone who obsesses with getting 100% on every exam, when the test is scored by how many of you come back alive. Better that than the immortal regenerator who can’t even be bothered to take things seriously enough to get out of the way of bullets… Mechwarrior Unfortunately for him, for the last 20 years the writers have apparently decided that his schitck is “team whipping boy.” ScottK Yeah, there was a great sequence with him in one of the early Ms. Marvel issues that showed this. Markus Here’s a fun question, where does Feral fit into your wholesomeness tier rankings for SFP? This is my list: S Tier: Buster A Tier: Feral, Geoff, Clevin B Tier: Hector, Amanda Callinectes Buster is S Tier to you? He’s a filthy leg-humper! Weatherheight He never was filthy – he’s a retriever and he loves him some bath time! Dead on about the leg humping though… ::glances over at the poor statue being disrespected:: Ptorq The worst thing Patrick … who can read Clevin’s mind, remember … could come up with on him is that Clevin likes to brag a little about who he’s dating. Which … it’s kinda like the old joke about the middle-aged guy who goes into a church and says “Father, I gotta tell you, I’m having an affair with a 19 year old supermodel.” The priest says “Really, the appropriate place for confessions is the confessional booth … also, I’m sorry, but I don’t recognize you; did you just move into the parish?” The guy says “Oh, I didn’t know about the rules for the same reason you didn’t recognize me; you see, I’m Jewish.” The priest says “Then why are you telling me this?” and the guy says “Telling YOU? I’m telling EVERYBODY.” Arkone Axon Oh, I’m sure Clevin must have an even darker secret. “I only mentioned that one to get you to flee the apartment so you wouldn’t get caught by telepathic collateral damage. Now if I wanted to render you catatonic, I’d remind you of… the cookie…” *Gasp! Eyes widening at the reminder of an incident a decade past!* “You took that cookie! It was the last cookie in the box… AND YOU TOOK IT!” *Clevin faints dead away from mortification; people start posting comments about how he’s literally the worst character in the comic ever* Gotham As opposed to leaving the one very last cookie in the box?! thus relieving you of the duty of bringing the box to the trash and imposing it to the poor soul coming after your treachery, in addition to condemning them to have just the one cookie for sustenance when all rules of ethics agree that a jolly portion of /two/ cookies is the bare minimum to manage a successful snack? Now that’s evil. palmvos one cookie or two- depends on the size of the cookie. Oreo size- 2 minimum. this gargantuan cookie (that was good) I got from the truck stop? one or 1/2 would be sufficient. Gotham There are questions that are entirely the matter of those eternally unknowable mysteries of personal subjective taste, and then there are these were YOU ARE OBJECTIVELY WRONG palmvos Objection! Lisa Izo I’m really not sure he does have an even darker secret. He’s nice. But not interesting in any sort of ‘bad boy’ way (which is actually a plus imho if you’re looking for a stable relationship without headaches). Some people are like onions. You peel away the top layer and there’s layers and layers below that. These people are bold, unforgettable, flavorful, although in the end they might make you cry when you peel back enough layers. Clevin is not an onion. Clevin is a cauliflower. You peel back the top layer and there’s a bunch of poofy stuff that’s sorta bland tasting but overall good for you. Gotham That was the joke Lisa Izo Yes. And? Arkone Axon …She’s… still posting things at me? Even though I’ve blocked her? Do I even want to know? Lisa Izo Yes, she’s now defending the honor of your joke by my having responded with a joke of my own apparently. Kidding. She just responded to my post with ‘That was the joke’ – I’m assuming she was trying to be either condescending or acting like I don’t understand that you were making a joke, despite my responding with another joke. Not sure. Not that important. 🙂 Gotham Wasn’t Arkone asking about the comment I answered to /him/, not you? Lisa Izo Nope. He was responding to me ABOUT you, Gotham. Gotham I don’t think he would care much about our conversations, though. Lisa Izo Well he did ask. But I doubt he does care about what you’re saying – he’s just surprised that you’re still posting things at him when he’s blocked you and you know he’s blocked you. Not a big issue to me. I’m responding to him. He’s responding to me. You’re posting to me and to him in different posts for some sort of reason that seems to have something to do with you thinking that I don’t know when Arkone is or is not making a joke. That’s fine – like I said, you’re wrong since I did know it was a joke, and I responded with another joke. Anything else to say? Gotham Well yes, if he’s surprised I’m answering him, wouldn’t it follow that him asking would then logically be about it? Also, you responded with another joke? Lisa Izo “Well yes, if he’s surprised I’m answering him, wouldn’t it follow that him asking would then logically be about it?” Trying to parse what you said. It’s very oddly written. What’s ‘it’ that you’re referring to? He’s surprised, as per what he said in his post that you could read, that you’re bothering to respond to any of his threads (or to others who post in his thread), when you know he blocked you because of past namecalling from you. Now I’m not clear if you read his post that you responded to me about. “Also, you responded with another joke?” Uh…yes? I responded to a joke with another joke. The ‘Max and Patrick are like onions, Clevin is like a cauliflower’ joke? Did you read my post that you responded to me about? Gotham – So then why did you answer about something else? – Oh. I mean, I don’t intend to be rude but you just made a comparison with food analogies. What was the joke? Lisa Izo “So then why did you answer about something else?” … because you responded to my post which was in response to his post? ” Oh. I mean, I don’t intend to be rude but you just made a comparison with food analogies. What was the joke?” It’s right up there in this thread. Long story short for the joke, since we all know repeating a joke over and over can only make it funnier (/sarcasm intended 🙂 ). Max and Patrick are deep characters with many layers. Then I described them in a way that had a double meaning for how people have certain physical reactions to onions once you start to prepare it by peeling back the outer layers and cutting to the core of the onion, as well as how people have certain emotional reactions to people once you delve deeper in their behavior and get deeper into the relationship. Then I compared that to Clevin, who I compared to a cauliflower, because he’s bland and generally uninteresting when it comes to being exciting, just like cauliflower in its natural state is not particularly flavorful on its own, and I made the poofy joke because of Clevin’s hair and the way cauliflower looks, but also that Clevin is someone with whom you can have a healthy, stable relationship despite his blandness, just like cauliflower, the food, is healthy for you despite its blandness. Now that I’ve broken down the joke I’m sure it’s a lot funnier. That’s sarcasm as well btw, since the joke was just a little bit of clever wordplay to begin with. Gotham – So you confirm that you didn’t answer what he was asking? – I see. The confusion stems for you calling it a joke I think, it’s certainly playful, “clever wordplay” and all but jokes hinge on establishing something that’s not true, in opposition with expectations. Whereas that food analogy is intended as accurate, you could almost say it seriously. Lisa Izo “So you confirm that you didn’t answer what he was asking?” … he wasn’t asking a question. “The confusion stems for you calling it a joke I think, it’s certainly playful, “clever wordplay” and all but jokes hinge on establishing something that’s not true, in opposition with expectations. Whereas that food analogy is intended as accurate, you could almost say it seriously.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1n5CQe1krI Gotham Didn’t you just write that he did ask in this comment? Edit: sorry, I posted by mistake. Yes, the clip you posted is indeed an example of a joke because Westley doesn’t actually think that and the audience knows it. Which makes it an insult, by the way, Mrs. I Am Above That. Lisa Izo That’s from a different post. One post, he was asking what you were writing in response to me, because he can’t see your posts since you are blocked. The other, previous post – the initial one to which I responded to his funny post with another funny post – had no questions being asked at all. Hopefully this thread is over. It’s over, right? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBzJGckMYO4 Gotham Oh, I see where you get things wrong. He can’t respond to me due to the interface of blocked users (but he still sees something akin to “this comment is blocked”) He was definitely asking about what I answered him (His comment makes it clear) but he had to ask you and chose to do so on an answer of yours to one of my comment so that it would be relevant. And you got what he meant wrong. I’m not sure how, honestly. He might have answered to that but what about your “Yes. And?” would have given him the impression that it was about him, according to you? Lisa Izo “I’m not sure how, honestly. He might have answered to that but what about your “Yes. And?” would have given him the impression that it was about him, according to you?” It’s amazing how much you can post over two moderately funny posts havingnothing to do with anything you said. Lets listen to the animated pig, shall we? Gotham It would have been easier had you answered “oh right, my mistake” like you should have to this comment. Lisa Izo Maybe you could wait a minute or so until I write out and properly edit my posts before immediately responding? Gotham Mmmmmaybe you could wait a minute or so until you’ve made up your mind before immediately posting? Lisa Izo Nah. Gotham Then write “edit” somewhere, that’s intellectually dishonest otherwise. Lisa Izo Nah. Especially since I do the edit within about 30 seconds after I hit enter if I find I didn’t word something correctly. Gnight. Gotham That’s no excuse. Don’t you know Disqus notifications don’t work for edits? Lisa Izo Truth be told I don’t think this thread is all that important to care about that. Gotham Your response rate says the absolute opposite. Lisa Izo Nah. I just respond to you despite this thread with you being very meaningless because I know you like having the last word. I stop responding while I’m going to work or sleep or have better things to do. Gotham This is kind of the opposite of not caring like you pretend to. Lisa Izo Honestly, I really don’t care. Even if you’re telling me I do. You don’t exactly have a good track record on knowing what I’m thinking, even on this thread. Any chance you’ll stop posting on this thread soon? Gotham You know I know that lying exist, right? Anyway yes. Bye. Lisa Izo I’m so elated that you said bye that I’m going to ignore how that sentence does not make any sense. Gotham That’s clearly a lie, and since you seem to care so much: “You know I know that lying exist, right?” = “You know (that) I know that lying exist, right?” = “You are aware of the fact that I know that people can lie, right?” = “I am wondering if you understand that I, Gotham, know people can lie.” = [In context] “What you said was clearly not true and you boasted about it with the confidence of someone who thinks saying something means the other can’t question it for some reason” It wasn’t very complicated, but it’s difficult not to overestimate what you can understand, no matter how many times it happens, so, my bad. Lisa Izo Hrm. The word ‘bye’ must have a different meaning for you than the rest of humanity. Gotham I won’t leave you in the dark when you need to be explained things, come on. Lisa Izo Adding this quote of your post so that Arkone can enjoy your post. “I won’t leave you in the dark when you need to be explained things, come on.” I think I can manage. If I ever really need to understand what you’re saying in your post, I’m sure I can bang my skull against a wall until blunt head trauma occurs. Or perhaps I’ll get drunk and that will help. Don’t you worry about me now. 🙂 I’ll somehow persevere without you explaining things that you say in your unique way. Be true to your ‘bye.’ Gotham I don’t think you can. I’m seriously contemplating whether this is a case where ethics compel me to bring help to people beyond their own agency and desire when they are clearly a danger to themselves. This is a bad way to resolve this dilemma, but I’ll let you decide for me. If you wanted me to stop talking to you, on this thread, or ever, you only need ask; I am a respectful person. Lisa Izo I’d love for you to stop talking to me 🙂 You have this really weird habit of making huge threads over literally nothing, including nothing even remotely based on the original posts in the thread or anything said by anyone in the thread. Usually for days on end. Arkone Axon *applauds and heads for the buffet* Lisa Izo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__6P2VK-Qao Arkone Axon …The best part is that, because she is indeed blocked, what I’m reading is like a comedian doing a routine where they’re on the phone. “Maybe you could wait a minute or so…?” This user is blocked. “Nah.” This user is blocked. “Nah. Especially since I didn’t…” This user is blocked. (Seriously, this is hilarious to me ^.^) Arkone Axon The best part? She thinks we’re the same person. That means that even if she’s right then the one person we’re both supposed to be is a comedian far beyond her abilities to even heckle, let alone compete with. Two accounts carrying on an impromptu vaudeville act. Anyway, back to the routine: I LIKE cauliflower. You just have to cook it right. You can cook it up with ground almonds and garlic for an exquisite side dish, or batter dip and fry it like tempura… you can mulch it up into dough to make breads and pastries with fewer carbs and a lot of calcium and other nutrients… People tend to forget that wholesome is not necessarily less tasty than naughty temptation. Especially when the wholesome comes without the painful regrets that come after you give in to the temptation… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_5Pz1Id_MU Lisa Izo “The best part? She thinks we’re the same person.” Yeah, I read that post 🙂 I’d continue on with the joke bit but there’s not much more I can do with it. Plus you included a Boondocks clip so I’m already entertained enough. Gotham I don’t believe that you’re the same person though? It’s some compelling amount of self-fellating going on for someone who didn’t get that I was playing a part, somewhat of a core tenet of comedy. For instance: this isn’t actually my headcanon. It’s a joke. Or, I don’t actually think death is better than a concussion. It’s a joke. Lisa Izo Actually I thought of something I can add to the thread 🙂 No one goes to eat a meal BECAUSE of the cauliflower 🙂 Arkone Axon True. Going back to the basis of the metaphor… Clevin’s problem is that he’s all cauliflower and none of the fixings that make it memorable and delicious. Look at characters like Steve Rogers. Captain America is a sweet and kind and good natured boy scout… who also can kick all kinds of ass, and (though they haven’t quite shown it in the MCU yet) is an artist in his spare time. Or Naruto Uzamaki, whose goofball antics and insatiable love of ramen are a veneer over his devotion to his friends and readiness to die to protect others (as opposed to the whiney selfish Sasaske, who runs away after their sensei patiently informs Sasaske that not even his pain and angst are unique: “I lost everyone I loved too, before you were even born. I moved on and found new loved ones, because that’s what mature people do.”) Or… Superman, especially when he’s done right. Clevin… he’s a boring nice guy. There’s nothing beyond that. No personal ambitions, no goals for himself, nothing beyond “I do everything for everyone else because I’m a completely selfless person.” He’s sweet, and he deserves better than to be the rebound guy, but… he really does need to grow a backbone and start learning that you can be assertive without being aggressive. Lisa Izo Yes. In short, Clevin is very ordinary. The only thing not ordinary about him is that he’s dating Alison. Sort of Patrick’s point about his insecurities. Gotham Your comment played as if you didn’t get that “Clevin has a dark secret” was the joke, since you answered to give your opinion on the matter which seemed out of place since it was not questioned because it was the joke Lisa Izo Well, you were wrong. 🙂 Gotham …….that was also the joke Lisa Izo O….kay? Gotham Do you want me to explain it? Lisa Izo Not particularly. The jokes don’t exactly warrant all this discussion. Gotham I concur. Dafydd Carmichael If you peel back an onion you get more onion… and then more onion. It’s turtles all the way down. Cauliflowers are different in the middle to how they are to begin with so If Clevin is the Cauliflower, does that mean he’s gonna turn into something different? Lisa Izo 1) It’s an analogy about food and people having layers. Way to analyze the analogy. 2) Have you ever had a cauliflower? There’s not something different inside. It’s just more of the same cauliflower. But there’s no layers to it. It’s just consistently bland flavorless vegetable bud all the way down, except for the part which is inedible. It doesn’t turn into something different. Cauliflower only has flavor from when you add something to it. It’s a good base for other more flavorful, interesting ingredients to make it worth bothering to eat. It’s another analogy. Cauliflower is boring and just has an interesting taste if something interesting is mixed into it. Onion already has a taste, and cutting down the layers actually makes the flavor more pronounced. ie…. Max and Patrick are interesting but pungent and may make you cry while making it palatable. Clevin is bland but very healthy for you to eat. If you want more food analogies, Max and Patrick are 100 Grand bars and Twix bars, Clevin is a plain rice cake. Gotham How do you define wholesome? My own kind of characters are often the ones I would rank lowest on almost any list. Happyroach Well, bearing in mind that Wolverine is the most social and group-oriented character in the Marvel Universe. I mean seriously, you can’t manage to more than three supers together without Wolverine popping up and looking grim and broody and antisocial. Arkone Axon Yeah… this is why I was never really a fan of Wolverine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoxRr07drJU Lisa Izo I love Beaubien’s entire channel. Every one of his videos are great. MisterTeatime I mean, her big contribution on this page is telling Alison that her priority is not to save someone’s life (albeit in more compassionate terms). That reads as very Wolverine to me. Gotham So, is she in control? We thought these were broadcast thoughts, not that she had agency within. This is confusing. Carl Patrick both receives and sends thoughts (now). And he’s out of control. Allison doesn’t need her own telepathy to influence what’s happening, because he will helplessly receive and be influenced by her thoughts and emotions. Gotham I figure but why does she need to sleep then Lysiuj Maybe his projections are largely from the unconcious/subconcious mind? So to fully connect with him on that wavelength she needs to recede below her concious mind, by sleeping. Gotham My headcanon is Alison and Clevin were actually just watching Inception and it stains her mental process Zorae42 I don’t think she’s sleeping. Just closing her eyes to concentrate. And then she’s caught up in his psychic loop of reading and broadcasting so she’s not really aware of her surroundings because she’s busy interacting with his telepathy. And since they don’t know the logistics of how this works she asked Feral to keep an eye on her. Gotham Do we agree that it’s a stretch for her to assume she can “go in” like it’s the first thing that pops to your mind when a mindreader goes berserk? I mean, at no point did Logan tell Xavier that they needed to go deeper. Zorae42 Well he’s broadcasting an image of her standing in front of a door. “Go in” is kind of what you do with doors 😛 That’s because his issue was Alzheimer’s/Dementia and Logan didn’t need anything from Xavier’s mind. They don’t know what happened to Patrick, what’s wrong with him, nor if there’s a way to fix him; and they need to know what he knows. Since he’s not in any position to share, mind melding with the berserk telepath is the only option they’ve got. Patrick_GETS_me Is the implication that by closing her eyes, Allison become more receptive to Patrick’s thoughts, or can even go inside his head? Has that been shown? It seems like a big leap from just having nightmares of his thoughts *sometimes* including times when she is awake with eyes open. Also… shouldn’t Allison pick them both up and fly to a *VERY* safe and remote location before she starts digging into the brain whose out-of-control telepathic broadcasting seems to have a rapidly widening broadcast radius> Tylikcat Considering that both Al and Tara were knocked down by the last one, trying to fly with him doesn’t sound wise. Gotham How about you wake him up and present him with another naive individual with lofty ideals and genuine earnestness, Patrick seems never more at peace than when crushing the realities of the kind. palmvos there is nothing new or unusual about needing a someone else to crush, humiliate, cut down, or otherwise abuse to salve ones ego. Lisa Izo A lot of Alison’s plans tend to be sort of short on ‘why this will work’ and long on ‘I don’t know what i’m doing’ 🙂 palmvos there is a fair amount of ‘will this work?’ in any development process. If it was easy… we’d program a computer to do it. Lisa Izo I didn’t say ‘will this work’ – I said Alison’s plans tend to be short on ‘why this will work.’ IE, her plans are short on ‘evidence on why it will work through rational educated guesses and fallback plans if the initial hypothesis does not pan out’ and big on ‘purely hopeful thinking of best case scenarios with no backup ideas beyond violence.’ palmvos there isn’t a lot of difference between asking will this work and why this will work. both questions tend to demand testing. I’ve designed and had made many mechanical systems. in several cases i could describe why i think it will work until its made. then i know why it works or why it doesn’t. I will admit that the why this works is a longer question to answer. Lisa Izo I said Alison’s plans lack a ‘why this will work.’ It’s different than knowing for an absolute fact that something will work. It’s about even having a plan for how it will work, possible ways that it might not work and fixes for that, and what to do if it does not work. Long story short – Alison doesnt think things through and the possible negative consequences before she does them. That’s all I’m really saying. When you make a mechanical system, I’m assuming you at least have some notion of what you’re going to do beyond ‘I’M GONNA BUILD THIS THING!’ If you build a computer, you probably know what type of computer you’re wanting (ie, gaming computer, computer just for work, a server, etc), what motherboard you’re going to use, what graphic card will work with that motherboard, what type of memry will work with it, you’ll get a case which will be big enough for the motherboard to fit in without making your life a living hell to get the damn thing in, you’ll know if you’re using SATA drives or SSD drives, or some mixture of the two, you’ll know if you’re using a sound card or just the motherboard’s onboard sound, you’ll probably have looked at the instruction manual to know where to hook up the motherboard into the case. Whereas Alison would just say she wants a computer, then buy parts mish-mosh and hope that she got the right parts, eventually punch out the salesperson if he starts asking any in depth questions about what she wants and threaten to dump him in the ocean when he wakes up from his hospital bed, then just ask Lisa to build it for her and hope it does not gain sentience when she just wants to play a game of Minecraft or whatever. palmvos in short- shes a very typical 20 something. most of them don’t do a lot of forward thinking. otherwise us old folks wouldn’t have such good stories to tell from when we were younger. besides if most 20 somethings did do a lot of thinking things through… well the world would be a sadder place. (more peaceful maybe) Lisa Izo “in short- shes a very typical 20 something.” Sadly true. “most of them don’t do a lot of forward thinking.” Also sadly true, usually. Or at least not much introspection about their own actions. “otherwise us old folks wouldn’t have such good stories to tell from when we were younger.” Good point. Fortunately most 20 year olds don’t have Alison’s powers, because otherwise those stories would not be quite as good for the planet :). “besides if most 20 somethings did do a lot of thinking things through… well the world would be a sadder place. (more peaceful maybe)” Nah, more boring maybe. Not sadder though. I like peacefulness. 🙂 Dean “If I start thrashing around and accidentally smash you through a wall… well, do your best not to hit anyone.” Walter Seems like if all it takes is lying on the bed next to the dude Feral should come too, yeah? Gotham I mean whatever she does won’t she be blasted with the projections just the same? And can she even decide to come along anyway? How do you cause Patrick to construct a mental image of yourself to control in his brain? Maybe it’s not the bed, but like, the shirt. It faintly smells of Alison and that’s why he has her on his mind while halfway between coma and wakefulness. Weatherheight Alison received the invitation – Tara saw Alison receiving the invitation. Tara has deduced that she’s not invited but she is being asked to nudge Alison along to accept the invitation. That’s how I’m reading it. Gotham I guess I miss the scene that sadly didn’t happen were Feral went: “Wait, I saw you in the vision– Did you see yourself?” “What do you mean?” “I mean, not through your eyes, but an aesthetically pleasing framing distance behind you?” “…Yes.” “Meaning if you go back in, you’re gonna control yourself in third person.” “………I guess.” “Okay, here’s my advice: don’t spam R1, don’t forget to roll.” “…sure.” “Don’t look at me like Imma nerd like yous boyf I just have a lot of free time since I’m out of the hospital and Dark Souls is very interesting in fact let me elabo–” “I’M GOING IN” There are ways to make the exposition interesting, is all. JeffH If you aren’t sure what’s going to happen to the super-strong person, it seem best to keep the relatively invulnerable person conscious to try to limit potential thrashing-around damage. Walter I mean…Alison’s strength seems limitless. If she starts thrashing around Feral won’t restrain her any more than a cloud would. Weatherheight But Tara can move Patrick out of harm’s way. As a former Telekinetic Civilian Relocater in a supers game, this is still an important job. JeffH But Alison won’t accidentally KILL her. Nearly anyone else trying to wake Al up would be at significant risk. Saying “Wake up!” a bunch of times could work even with temporarily broken ribs and missing limbs. Eva Smiljanić Feral is smart. Really, really smart. ampg She certainly knows Alison well. Zorae42 Oh wow. I wonder if they’re going to set up a choice between putting herself in danger trying to help him and safely gtfo-ing with the stuff he knows. I’m not sure which choice she would choose either. Even after Feral’s statement. Ptorq I am now choosing to believe until proven otherwise that Patrick is still on the side of the angels … or at least not on the side of the devils … and got rid of Clevin so he didn’t get hurt. He probably figures Feral can take care of herself, or at least that she’d be too difficult to scare off because he doesn’t have a convenient handle on her (in that all her embarrassing secrets we know about are already semi-public knowledge). He’s also probably figuring that Al can take care of herself, and hopefully take care of him too. Weatherheight This could be…. Really good day for smart today… Gotham Here’s a fun possibility: this is not strictly speaking “Alison”, but an avatar of the mental representation of Alison through the lens of Patrick’s psyche. She’ll still be controlled by Alison Prime because he can read her mind while he’s broadcasting his but, maybe he’s not necessarily envisioning an all powerful indestructible Mega Girl. In fact, considering his complex of superiority, I’d bet he fancies himself the only one who could truly hurt her, hence an Alison that can actually get hurt in whatever perils await her next few pages. Something she hasn’t experienced since teenage! I’m pumped if that’s the case. Debbie Jackson Well, there was that one thing with Daniel, but more or less 😉 Gotham And there was that strained shoulder while focusing her powers on flying to the dam. But you know what I mean 😐 Arkone Axon http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/tumblr_ljh0puClWT1qfkt17.gif DaktariD I’m guessing that Alison, who normally can’t be hurt, will find that she *CAN* be hurt in the dream world. Just guessing. Zac Caslar Well, if Patrick’s making the rules she certainly might get a sudden dose of what it’s like to physically suffer like everyone else does. Stephanie Gertsch I am in awe of the way Feral wields the elusive triple negative. Gotham And she knows French! Like, woman, leave some awesomeness for others sometimes Weatherheight Rule six: Mission Creep is not your friend – remember the mission. JohnTomato “hell-bent” Unless your name is Feral. S.I. Rosenbaum they’re gonna do The Cell! Herwood OHH!! Inception! Also, does this confirm the visions are coming from him? deebles Doesn’t look like she tried to phone Klevin. Not great relationship management there… but then, this relationship has never really looked like a high priority, just something nice on the side of other (very important) shit going on. It won’t last. Arkone Axon Good. He deserves better. Especially since he was the rebound boyfriend – and Clevin deserves more than that. Gotham You need to consider how boring it would be to follow that plot when wacky dream shenanigans are to happen. The sooner the better, I don’t need to see the text asking Clevin for some clarification that, by the way, he clearly said on the way out that he was going to give at some point. deebles To me it looks like her focus switched to Patrick as soon as she was blocked from running after Clevin. Obviously she has just been mindwhammied… But ordinarily, if someone you love has just run out while upset, you’d call them. She didn’t. And if he tries to call her, she probably won’t be awake to answer. Gotham Ordinarily, if someone I love has just run out while upset but I had my brain overwritten at that very moment and I am the only one able to stop the source, I tend to prioritize. (But it only happened once, I can’t say I’d do that /every/ time) Dan Franklin Clevin said he’d call her, so the onus is on him… If/when he calls Feral can fill him in on why Alison can’t come to the phone right now. Also, this really is a lot more important than one relationship – and I think Clevin would understand that. It’s not ordinary times. David Gillon Everyone’s missing the big question. Is there a door bell? RobNiner ♫ It’s weird, but nice, when Feral is the mature one. Fairportfan Feral as the Voice of Reason and Prudence. WoW. The Millennium is at hand.