Issue 1CoverPage 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Page 10Page 11Page 12Page 13Page 14Page 15Page 16Page 17Page 18Page 19Page 20Page 21Page 22BreakPage 92 Issue 2CoverPage 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Page 10Page 11Page 12Page 13Page 14Page 15Page 16Page 17Page 18Page 19Page 20Page 21Page 22Page 23Page 24Page 25Page 26Page 27Page 28Page 29Page 30Page 31Page 32Page 33Page 34Page 35Page 36Page 37Page 38Page 39Page 40Page 41Page 42Page 43Page 44Page 45Page 46Page 47Page 48Page 49Page 50 Issue 3CoverPage 1Page 2Page 3HolidayPage 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Page 10Page 11Page 12Page 13Page 14Page 15Page 16Page 17Page 18Page 19Page 20Page 21page 22Page 23Page 24Page 25Page 26Page 27Page 28Page 29Page 30Page 31p 32Page 33Page 34Page 35Page 36Page 37Page 38Page 39Page 40Page 41Page 42Page 43Page 44Page 45Page 46Page 47Page 48Page 49Page 50Page 51Page 52Page 53Page 54Page 55Page 56Page 57Page 58Page 59Page 60Page 61Page 62Page 63Page 64Page 65Page 66Page 67Page 68Page 69Page 70Page 71Page 72Page 73Page 74Page 75Page 76Page 77Page 78 Guest ArtTuesdayWednesdayFriday Issue 4CoverPage 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Page 10Page 11Page 12Page 13Page 14Page 15Page 16Page 17Page 18Page 19Page 20Page 21Page 22Page 23Page 24Page 25Page 26Page 27Page 28Page 29Page 30Page 31Page 32Page 33Page 34Page 35Page 36Page 37Page 38Page 39Page 40Page 41Page 42Page 43Page 44Page 45Page 46Page 47Page 48Page 49Page 50Page 51Page 52 Issue 5CoverPage 1Page 2NewspaperPage 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Page 10Page 11Page 12Page 13Page 14Page 15Page 16Page 17Page 18Page 19Page 20Page 21Page 22Page 23Page 24Page 25Page 26Page 27Page 28Page 29Page 30Page 31Page 32Page 33Page 34Page 35Page 36Page 37Page 38Page 39Page 40Page 41Page 42Page 43Page 44Page 45Page 46Page 47Page 48Page 49Page 50Page 51Page 52Page 53Page 54Page 55Page 56Page 57Page 58Page 59Page 60HiatusPage 61Page 62Page 63Page 64Page 65Page 66Page 67Page 68Page 69Page 70Page 71Page 72Page 73Page 74Page 75Page 76Page 77Page 78Page 79Page 80Page 81Page 82Page 83Page 84Page 85Page 86Page 87Page 88Page 89Page 90Page 91Page 92Page 93Page 94Page 95Page 96Page 97Page 98Page 99Page 100Page 101Page 102Page 103Page 104Page 105Page 106Page 107Page 108Page 109Page 110Page 111Page 112Page 113Page 114Page 115Page 116Page 117Page 118Page 119Page 120Page 121Page 122Page 123Page 124Page 125Page 126Page 127Page 128Page 129Page 130Page 131Page 132Page 133Page 134Page 135Page 136Page 137Page 138Page 139Page 140Page 141Page 142Page 143Page 144Page 145Page 146Page 147Page 148Page 149Page 150Page 151Page 152Page 153Page 154Page 155Page 156Page 157Page 158Page 159Page 160Page 161Page 162Page 163Page 164Page 165Page 166Page 167 Issue 6CoverPage 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Page 10Page 11Page 12Page 13Page 14Page 15Page 16Page 17Page 18Page 19Page 20Page 21Page 22Page 23Page 24Page 25Page 26Page 27Page 28Page 29Page 30Page 31Page 32Page 33Page 34Page 35Page 36Page 37Page 38Page 39Page 40Page 41Page 42Page 43Page 44Page 45Page 46Page 47Page 48Page 49Page 50Page 51Page 52Page 53Page 54Page 55Page 56Page 57Page 58Page 59Page 60Page 61Page 62Page 63Page 64Page 65Page 66Page 67Page 68Page 69Page 70Page 71Page 72Page 73Page 74Page 75Page 76Page 77Page 78Page 79Page 80Page 81Page 82Page 83Page 84Page 85Page 86Page 87Page 88Page 89Page 90Page 91Page 92Page 93Page 94Page 95Page 96Page 97Page 98Page 99Page 100Page 101Page 102Page 103Page 104Page 105Page 106Page 107Page 108Page 109Page 110Page 111Page 112Page 113Page 114Page 115Page 116Page 117Page 118Page 119Page 120Page 121Page 122Page 123Page 124Page 125Page 126Page 127Page 128Page 129Page 130Page 131Page 132Page 133Page 134Page 135Page 136Page 137Page 138Page 139Page 140Page 141Page 142Page 143Page 144Page 145 Bonus Content1234 Issue 7CoverPage 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Page 10Page 11Page 12Page 13Page 14Page 15Page 16Page 17Page 18Page 19Page 20Page 21Page 22Page 23Page 24Page 25Page 26Page 27Page 28Page 29Page 30Page 31Page 32Page 33Page 34Page 35Page 36Page 37Page 38Page 39Page 40Page 41Page 42Page 43Page 44Page 45Page 46Page 47Page 48Page 49Page 50Page 51Page 52Page 53Page 54Page 55Page 56Page 57Page 58Page 59Page 60Page 61Page 62Page 63Page 64Page 65Page 66Page 67Page 68Page 69Page 70Page 71Page 72Page 73Page 74Page 75Page 76Page 77Page 78Page 79Page 80Page 81Page 82Page 83Page 84Page 85Page 86Page 87Page 88Page 89Page 90Page 91Page 93Page 94Page 95 Show Comments Stephanie Interesting. If Feral has been asleep for some unknown amount of time, then that reopens the possibility that she was the target, who appeared to be asleep when Max applied the fairy dust. palmvos the catch is the doctors comment ‘she hasn’t slept for a long time.’ at first I wanted to explode- sleep depredation is specifically called out as torture. But then i realized she probably passed out from the pain on a regular basis (and the medical staff likely felt relief when it happened). Rens I’m pretty sure that “passing out from the pain” isn’t the same as sleeping, and in any event would likely be cut short the moment her synapses recovered enough to once again process pain impulses without blacking out again. Weatherheight Although Tara as Coma-Girl would have been nice to know…. Maybe getting burned so severely maxed out her anomaly’s ability to restore herself and she got stuck almost fully healed but now quite. Or maybe the mental trauma was so severe that Tara never woke up; boosting her power helped heal her mind. Come to think of it, if Alison knew Tara was in a coma, that would also help explain some of the desperation in her behavior prior to forcing Max to her will. Interesting.. And for the record, I fall on the “Dragon Balls” descriptor of Max/s power, rather than “Fairy Dust” descriptor. 😀 ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 You mean mine? Because even I thought it was sillier than my usual stuff Sendaz It would be a bit of irony if it turns out that ala boosted Feral now heals so fast that ultimately the surgeons can not cut out the organs because the cuts are now sealing themselves up faster than the doc and even the machines can make them and thus ends Feral’s career as perpetual organ donor. Insanenoodlyguy Nah, it was her organs, or something else that makes the project sustained without Feral being perpetually under the knife. If Allison simply boosted her to the point surgery doesn’t work, I’d imagine the doctor’s would be… less then pleased about this. And Feral would be absolutely livid. Alison seems to expect she’ll be happy, which means whatever happened, it didn’t make her unable to help, Alison believes it made it unnecessary. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 It seems to be everyone’s guess, and I don’t imagine it would be fair of the webcomic to have Alison find a solution for Tara with literally no set up, like “amping up that other super we have never heard about who has the power to make organs appear but just once a day so that they can now make organs appear anytime” But then again Max’ power are still very blurry to us, so let’s see. Walter A theory I’m mulling over is that Max’s power is the ability to make other Supers into basically super power transmitters. He did this to Feral, so she transmitted her healing ability to everyone around. They all healed up, and don’t need transplants anymore. Izo Except they didn’t say that was his power. Pol Subanajouy Ah yeah, lot of people called it. I’m still uncertain as to what exactly that changed with her powers and what the new situation is, but yeah, it makes sense it would be for Feral. Matrix Ah, Ha. Feral was the one amped. Oooh, What happens when you amp up someone with regeneration? Do they become a healer and able to push the regeneration on others? That would be useful and Feral is already of a giving mind. Instead of donating organs just make others organs better. AustinC123 Seconded, Feral. screechfox Oh, Feral, you’re lovely. I can foresee your reaction when Alison tells you as being negative, and for fair reason (though you never know.) But it’s still lovely to see Feral again, out of endless torturous organ donation, at least for a little bit until whatever happens happens. I like Feral a lot. Marc Forrester And with skin on and everything. It is a better look for her. BGB You did whaaat?!? Steele That burger’s gonna be cold by now =( Tylikcat …how did that big ass hamburger get into that small ass bag? And this is why being confused through the last sequence was important. Because even now, just seeing the attending there, smiling and looking totally okay with whatever is going on, and seeing Feral waking up and not on the operating table… yeah, part of me is thinking, “I can totally see why, having this goal in her head, Alison didn’t really give a damn about terrorizing Max.” We still don’t know what Alison made Max do. Max, apparently, was told the whole score. (I mean, Alison could have fed him a line, but that would grant Alison a kind of cunning we’ve never seen evidence of. She certainly did a lousy job of it, if so.) Knowing that, he turned her down, and turned her down categorically – that he’d say no no matter what, just because it was her who was asking. (I still think there’s a better way. A better way that included sleeping the fuck on it. I mean, I can understand the perceived urgency, but… just no. It would give Max a chance to get some emotional distance from things as well. It might give her a chance to come up with a better go better – I mean, is there anything she can offer Brad? Because Brad’s services should not be presumed to be free! But damn, Brad has the talking goods.) I can certain imagine her weighing Max’s pain and terror against Feral’s pain and terror against the stain on her own soul… and just saying “Fuck it.” (Sleep, damn it. This is why sleep is so important. It’s hard enough not to make awful decisions at the best of times. Sleep deprivation and “Fuck it!” are made for each other.) Weatherheight TARDIS – Time and Relative Dimensions In Sack. And that doctor / nurse / orderly is caught between “SO happy she’s awake!” and “How the hell do I tell Mega Girl that Tara really shouldn’t be eating that just now.” If Tara was who Max was forced to help, then I feel Alison totally would have forced him even when not sleep-deprived just for this moment. And this moment.. yeah, this is very much a moment. palmvos ‘…how did that big ass hamburger get into that small ass bag?’ i can’t resist…. its a wibbilly wobbily timey wimey thing, a long scarf is involved too. Lysiuj Sonic Hamburger? MrSing Is the bag bigger on the inside? ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 I’m of two minds on the matter of perceived urgency. If we’re meant to understand that the general pace of the comic follows real time, it’s been going on for years, so… but granted I would weigh the options differently if I had the slightest clue of the impact of “just one more day of hell”. And while I understand why it makes Alison’s snapping understandable, something I only slightly doubted for like two minutes, doesn’t the fact that this is personal make it also… more aggravating? More difficult to defend in the pursuit of an objectively better way? From Max’ perspective, I’d wager Al abusing her power for her own personal reasons must make it even worse, I mean. But onto another thing. Now the question becomes, can you totally see, if as it seems to be the case, why did Alison not only not care about Max’ protests, but neither about the potential opinion on the subject of Tara herself? Tylikcat Mm. Leaving aside the question of terrorizing Max, I think there are possibilities for which Tara’s opinion could be reasonably inferred – one in which a whole lot more people were helped / saved by the Max-imization (h/t to Moriati) and her being able to get on with her life was just a happy accident would seem to be one. She explained her reasoning to Alison at length. (Though one could argue that sitting down with everyone and waking her up and asking her would kind of be the thing to do. This is not what you’d call above board, but then, this is a world with superheroes in it. And superheroes and process seem to repel eachother.) Giacomo Bandini I disagree. I belive that in Alison mind, the whole point was to free Tara from her eternal pain and still keeping saving lives. And that is why she did not cares about Tara potential opinion, or spent more time trying to convince Max. If one of my loved ones was suffering the way Tara was, i will stop this suffering, even if he or she wanted differently; and i wil want it done as soon as possible, because even a week less of unthinkable pain is a treasure worth anything to get. Tylikcat Huh – I entirely agree with your above point, but see it as another possibility, not a contradiction to what I wrote above. I don’t claim to know Alison’s actual motivations – I hope it was for love of Tara, I hope Tara’s feelings mattered to her. I am not at all certain of either case. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 (Also and to answer your first question: Alison ate half of it already because these are long long nights you spend not sleeping and waiting for your super friend to wake up with a Big Ass hamburger right next to you smelling so nice just getting colder by the minute.) Tylikcat And that is why you order fries. Which aren’t good cold anyway. Arthur Frayn The relative sizes of the hamburger and bottle do not seem to have changed since the previous page. The thing is, page 88 is about tricks of proportion expressing truths. When flying, she carries him like a baby, though he is taller. The hamburger and bourbon bottle are in extreme close up, emphasizing their importance, just like Alison in the foreground in the frames above towers over Max as she invokes her right to determine justice by being stronger. He’s subjectively smaller, and his whining about fairness to a Nietschean ubermensch changes nothing. Separately, but also about the art, I like the grease stains on the bag. motorfirebox Question of the frickin’ year, Feral! Philip Bourque You know, I read a story once where a person with an abnormal immune system underwent experiments to enhance it. I forget the particulars, but in enhancing it, it became this sort of death-cloud which destroyed everything around the protagonist; because immune systems destroy foreign invaders and everything was foreign. In the end, the guy committed suicide because no one could get within a one kilometre radius, because otherwise his immune system would kill them. It wasn’t a particularly nice story. Stephanie I remember something like that in the Marvel universe, only it wasn’t from experiments, it was just some kid who happened to wake up with that mutation one day and unwillingly killed everyone he knew. Izo http://imgur.com/gallery/I71V6 Nik Gervae They did something like that in an episode of Star Trek TNG too. Philip Bourque I must have missed or forgotten that episode. Mechwarrior It was during the slump season with Dr Polanski as the badly done and unpopular replacement for Dr Crusher. Trust me, you didn’t miss much. Izo It was called Unnatural Selection. Dumb episode. Espeically considering that in Star Trek, eugenics and genetic modification is supposed to be illegal, which is the whole point of the secrecy of Dr. Bashir being genetically modified. They don’t want another Khan Noonian Singh. Mechwarrior Dumb episode during one of the show’s worse seasons, yeah. Polanski was a terrible character who never should have been added to the show. Izo The one with the genetically augmented children taking a flu and turning it into an aging virus? Izo There was something like that in X-Men also with a kid who’s mutant power was basically that it killed anyone within a one mile radius around him, and he couldn’t turn it off. Wound up killing his parents, siblings, neighbors, friends, schoolmates, teachers, and everyone and everything living (animals, etc) in the area instantly. They wound up sending Wolverine in to kill him while he was hiding in a cave trying to stay away from everyone else, since Wolverine’s healing factor prevented the kid’s power from killing him. Sure they could have instead done something like they did with Hazmat, but instead they sent Wolverine in to kill him because if the word ever got out that a mutant was responsible for 265 deaths just from existing, it would be bad P.R. for mutants. http://imgur.com/gallery/I71V6 Norel With upgraded powers, maybe Alison’s friend will heal so fast it will no longer be possible to operate her ? In such case I doubt she would be pleased. Santiago Tórtora She asked for a doctor’s opinion, first. Remember when she asked a couple of ‘hypothetical’ questions to her doctor before visiting Max? I think she wanted to make sure Feral could still be operated on if her powers were boosted. Hypothetically, of course. Izo I’m still wondering how a doctor would know the results of Max’s undefined power boosting power on Feral. Santiago Tórtora Remember Allison described his power as “going full Tinkerbell” without ever seeing it. Max’s power is undefined to us but Patrick, Allison and the doctor have more information. I’m sure that file contained all the information Patrick extracted from Max’s mind, augmented with the best interpretations of the “borrowed” skills of the best dynamorphism experts. Izo Not sure how the doctor would have more information, and if she did have information on someone who was classified by Congress, not sure why the doctor’s first question wouldn’t be ‘who gave you this highly classified information.’ UnsettlingIdeologies I’m with you on this one. In addition to the information straight from Max’s brain, there may also be information from Max’s mother’s brain. We’ve already seen that Patrick likes to pay visits to places like congress. Perhaps he had “heard” something about Max at some point (or a kid with these sorts of powers) and then went actively looking for more information. I imagine it wouldn’t be hard for someone with Patrick’s power to gain access to classified documents. Just pull a little passcode from this person here and a little info on what to look for from this person there and some sweet hacking skills from these folks over here. (We already know he can learn advanced physics from sleeping scientists.) If there is a way to test for powers, then there must be some understanding of their biological source (as in the biological mechanisms that trigger the manifestation of biodynamism). And if there is an understanding of their source, it’s completely possible that the original scientists who looked at Max may have had a pretty clear grasp on precisely how his powers worked (or at least a damn good guess). So maybe the hypothetical question was something like “What would happen to someone with accelerated cellular regeneration whose **source** was made hyperactive/amplified?” Better yet, maybe the two questions were something like 1) “Hypothetically speaking, can you see any way that amplifying someone’s **source** could harm them?” and 2) “Have you heard of anyone who has ___________ super power?” where ________ is the power that she believes could fix the world if amplified. Marc Forrester Nah. The bourbon and burger thing means she’s found a one punch solution to fix the world. Maybe. If nothing goes wrong. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 Webcomic over! …? t’would be weird Charles Moore I’m hoping that this is not the case. I’m hoping that Feral now has the ability to share her regeneration with others. But I’m leaning toward what you said because this chapter seems like it’s about isolating Alison. ClockworkDawn Glad to see she’s as eloquent as always. Silverwizard Ok – now they’re just drawing out the reveal for fun Weatherheight Heh. I hope they’re doing the whole story because it’s fun for them. Labours of love are almost always somehow more satisfying. 12th JFC Alison, GO TO BED. Do not pass go, do not collect $25M, GET SOME SLEEP. Weatherheight +1 for a Monopoly reference. spriteless So, what is Al gonna say? The edited version of the truth? “I got someone to boost your powers, who prefers to remain anonymous” or something more honest, or somehow less, or nothing at all? Santiago Tórtora Some people’s powers have been getting stronger all of their own. Moonshadow can do illusions, Cleaver has sharper blades, and even Allison can now fly. Feral doesn’t have to know someone else was involved at all. David Forrest Allison developed flying power without Max. Maybe she can say Feral leveled up on her own as well. The Improbable Man So, we don’t get to learn what happened, but hey, at least nothing in this page is controversial, right? Let’s leave the arguments alone for a bit and give Molly a break. 🙂 ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 EMOTICONS ARE OFFENSIVE TO ME MrSing HOW DARE YOU USE CAPSLOCK!? motorfirebox LOUD NOISES Izo STOP USING MULTIPLE PUNCTUATION MARKS! critically_damped This storyiline is amazing. MinorGryph It’s starting to look like Allison has had a complete mental break. Punch her, Feral. Stephanie Why do you think so? I don’t see any indications of that. She’s tired, but still making an effort to smile at her friend. Sendaz Friends who bring you booze and burgers when you are in hospital are still the best friends. dragon The only way i can see his power helping is her cells replicating well enough that her organs clone themselves. MrSing Nine months after implanting a Feral organ into a patient a brand new Feral comes bursting out of their chest. Izo Had to upvote this because of the hilarious visual image that popped into my head. Arklyte Or if she progressed from Wolverine’s powerscale straight into Doomsday’s(ie she does not only regenerate now, but also is getting immune to what damaged her last time and they can’t cut her open anymore). It’s also a possibility even if a questionable move on Allison’s side(and a total disaster if Feral finds out), but this whole situation is bad either way. Plus it’s probably one time boost that made her immune to what equipement the doctors can use and not a permanent new power(because if it’s otherwise, Max needs to die right now for the sake of the story). Well, at least it partially wraps up one story ark… maybe… not likely:( Philip Petrunak Now kiss…. James D’Amato I think she was in the everyone playing D&D print. I am pretty sure you are right for in the comic. SJ Whole lot of nothing on this page: most people appear to have accurately predicted that the target was going to be Feral, anyway. So… kudos to y’all, I guess. I still don’t feel like Feral being the target proves that Alison’s plan is going to work, or that her actions were justified, but I am totally not here for another four-day round of “Nuh-uh!” “Yeah-huh!” I’m strongly tempted to opt out of further discussion, until we (finally) find out what the actual plan is. If Tara doesn’t give Alison a verbal smackdown, I’m probably going to consider this to be a wasted three weeks, regardless. S Black That’s a The Room quote, right? ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 Nope, it doesn’t change anything, because the very point is that there is no amount of circumstances that justifies immoral behavior sometimes. I admit I was scared the reason might be even less understanvle with what Al was saying with Max into a tableslam chokehold, and it was silly of me to distrust the webcomic which has never really given me any reason to, and the larger part of me knew there had to be *something*. But still, like Tylikcat is saying. Sleep on it? Involve Brad’s flowery speech and it’s wondrous argumentation? Try to convince Max a little longer than five minutes? There had to be something of an effort to attempt to avoid resorting to utter tyranny. And the utmost dire words she told him in the end. And Feral *will* not be okay with it. Ben Posin In Alison’s defense, every moment Alison hesitates, Feral is being cut into pieces alive, fully conscious. There’s some urgency. And Max isn’t a total stranger—she has reason to believe he places enormous value on his autonomy, and that haven’t said no in the fashion he did there wouldn’t be a lot of value in trying to persuade him further. At that point, if she was going to get him to do it at all, it was just a question of what the minimum level of coercion necessary would be. Given Feral’s situation, I can understand a decision to just skip to the end. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 As I posited elsewhere then, why not skip even further and tear out Tara from the hospital by force? We know she’s not going to be happy about what Alison did anyway so, what’s the difference? Tara is still saved, the world doesn’t substantially changes (Al’s argument when Tara told her her plan) And this is not an argument I’m actually making, but one analogy to criticize the terrible unconsidered consequences of “skipping to the end” Weatherheight Assuming Max helped Feral… The question, to me, was never whether Alison was justified in her own mind. The question was how it would process in her mind down the road once she got a little back in her usual mind. Looks like we’ll get to see just that pretty soon (I hope). 😀 Giacomo Bandini I think that Alison just learned an hard lesson about herself. “I will try try to save the world with all my abilities, but i will not become a tyrant. BUT, when the lives of my loved ones are on the stake, the gloves are off.” ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 Does anybody ever do something that’s not justified in their own mind anyway? Unless coerced, of course? pidgey I constantly, *constantly* do things I can’t justify to myself. I call it absent-mindedness, or sometimes, not even that infrequently, stupidity. Even aside from those, there are lots of situations I’ve been in where I don’t know how to find a justification of any kind, for any response at all to a situation, but I have to make one anyway. The resulting blind stab in the dark at a justified reaction definitely does not count as one. palmvos likely the pills are habit- even in this world how many patients are there who are immune to pain meds and still feel pain? can we blame the nurses and doctors for thinking some pain meds are in order? MarvalAlice CALLED IT!! I called it 0u0 Sendaz http://strongfemaleprotagonist.com/issue-3/page-40-2/ She is usually only between surgeries when doctors or equipment is being switched out/repaired. palmvos :: a forklift drops a pallet of paper printed in a small font.:: labeled ‘short list of what could go wrong’ Weatherheight Oh, I think the consensus is most definitely that Max is a massive schmuck, irrespective of his actions or lack thereof. The tizzy is over whether that is sufficient reason for Alison to violate his autonomy. And now we get to see what happens. Arkone Axon Something similar to this happened to me once. …No, I’m not talking about the “made it so I can help people without being under constant surgery” thing. I’m talking about the “was made a party to a crime without my consent or even my knowledge” thing. Without going into details, this person volunteered to take on additional duties for my professional project… and then engaged in some actual Federal crimes, victimizing other people, because “it had to be done.” Again, without going into details: I. Was. Livid. I was made a party to a hugely dishonest, treasonous, unethical activity without even KNOWING about it, let alone being given the option to consent to it. Alison could have had someone else talk to Max. At least one of Max’s reasons (and guess what: It was a VERY valid reason to say no just because it was her doing the asking) would have been dismissed had someone he found less objectionable come to him to ask. Instead, she has literally done to Max what Feral did to herself – except instead of using a volunteer, she violated his consent and made everyone involved an accessory to her crimes. So do I still think Alison was wrong? YES. Just as every doctor (Nazi or otherwise) who ever engaged in medical research that saved lives by experimenting on unwilling test subjects was wrong to do it. You want to argue otherwise, go tell it to the families of the black men who died in agony as part of the Tuskagee Experiment. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 Look man it’s safe here you can tell us that time you forgot to put a stamp on your letter and and only your friend was badass enough to do to pick the post box open to get it back which is technically a federal crime Arkone Axon Actually it had more to do with a high ranking U.S. Army officer taking it upon himself to ask subordinates to do him a “favor” by working on a private project. While on duty. Y’know, “misappropriation of assets.” “Peculation.” “Treason.” Carl Treason it is not. The Constitution defines treason very clearly as “Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.” Doesn’t make it non-criminal, of course. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 I really didn’t intend for you to say more than you intended, sorry. Mechwarrior Side note, but the Nazis really didn’t make as significant of contributions to modern medicine as they’re often credited for. A lot of their “experiments” were simply acts of sadism by men who liked chopping people up for fun. Arkone Axon I agree. Just as the Tuskagee experiment proved nothing beyond “Syphilis really sucks if you don’t get treatment.” And just as Alison’s “saving the world” appears to be rather less about “saving countless lives” and more about helping her friend, whom she knows and likes and is therefore infinitely more important than anyone or anything else. Which is an incredibly selfish attitude to have, and one that Feral herself had already refuted way back when she was first explaining her decision to go under the knife to Alison. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 No matter how true that is, I’m uncomfortable discussing it like it would even matter. Even if Nazis preemptively found a cure for cancer in the midst of all the horrible things they did, nope, not worth it. Weatherheight “can we refer to Max’s ability as ‘Max-imisation’?” Seconded. Call for a vote? ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 Thirded. Is “thirded” not a thing in your adorkable language, as my spellcheck is implying this very second to me? Let’s make it a thing. Call for a vote? Izo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSVms6cT9nk MrSing Well, to be fair, that was Feral’s solution too. Technically. Weatherheight Leukemia is the usual cancer treated by bone-marrow transplant. Can’t recall if we ever got an exact diagnosis from Alison’s father and not awake enough yet to go archive diving. Newbie I feel like if Feral had a problem with this, it wouldn’t be a “you deprived me of attention” so much as a “you did WHAT to get me out of there?!” Then again, given Feral’s old job as an antihero, I’m not entirely certain how strong her objections to Allison’s behavior would be, or even if she’d have a chance to object. I mean, what is Allison going to say? “…and then I literally twisted his arm and threatened to murder him if he didn’t do what I said, and that’s why you’re awake now!” I mean, if I were her I’d probably gloss over those parts. All that being said, I…don’t really see how this would save a lot more people? I mean, it’s great for Feral obviously, but why would it matter to the world as a whole whether the organs come from inside a living person or not? I assume they were already gathering and shipping them out as fast as possible. Also, hold on, if the doctors were harvesting EVERYTHING except her eyes, and Allison’s solution was to have Max help create organs that survived outside the body and regenerated themselves, then wouldn’t they basically just have grown a second Feral to go under the knife instead? How is that better? ARGH. Must. Have. More information. Insanenoodlyguy The second Feral wouldn’t have a brain or be sentient. If it’s organ farm then this is like cutting a worm in half to get more worms. You aren’t dealing with something that has a brain so much as a nervous system, so “harm” is a bit vague in this point. It’s not a second feral, it’s a heart that can grow more hearts, a lung that can grow more lungs, etc. Tylikcat There really isn’t any reason to think this. We’ve seen her take major head trauma and regenerate it with brain function apparently intact. The idea that organ farm feral would somehow not have a working brain seems… nice and convenient for us, but why would you expect that to be the place? (And please, no reference to souls or somelike – I spend a lot of time digging around in brains, and we’ve found all kinds of cool stuff, but no evidence of either souls or the need for them. But one assumes if they exist, they are no less capable of being cut in half and then regenerating.) Marc Forrester They could maybe adapt the keep Feral open machinery to constantly prevent brain regeneration. Seer of Trope An organ farm of braindead clones would raise some serious ethical questions which has not been foreshadowed (for example, Max would have probably been disgusted at the idea) thus that’s probably not Alison’s plan. JanetBird FINALLY. Feral GETS it. Feral knows what questions to ask!! Great, good page, I’ll see you all on Tuesday…. Marc Forrester Previous strip, top comment. 3-I To be fair, reading the comments is VERY painful these days. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 Hey you know I have feelings too Marc Forrester Analgesics, probably straight morphine? Pointless during the actual surgery, but it’s gotta be better than nothing during recovery. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 Remember that her body metabolizes anesthesics so well it’s not just that her nerve endings can’t get physically numbed; the subjective feeling of pain can’t be avoided. It’d be weird to be so immune to hard hitting drugs but have these have any effect. JanetBird Ooh, good point, that doctor could very well be the one Alison called! That makes me feel slightly better… Sendaz We don’t know yet what exactly is happening with Feral, so before we say anyone ended her agony we will have to wait and see. And yes, it was still Wrong, though perhaps an argument can be made for Necessary, because Alison forced Max to do it. Sure it seems easy to support a bit of arm twisting, because he is an insufferable prick, but should Alison then take Paladin’s plans/designs for her advanced robotics to turn over to someone else to build robots to replace firefighters regardless of Paladin’s wishes? There are over a million firefighters in the US alone and more worldwide so they would be potentially saving millions of lives because the robots could operate better and faster in harsher conditions. And she wouldn’t have to threaten her, just steal the specs or take one of the robots, because by this logic the lives of millions outweighs Paladin’s personal ownership of her creations. Which on a side note kind of reminds me of the classic Captain Planet show where the kids are flying around the globe in Gaia’s environmentally friendly aircraft and i always wondered, Gaia is mad about pollution but somehow can’t share the enviro-friendly tech?? What was up with that? 😉 Santiago Tórtora Allison wouldn’t be going against Paladin in that case. She would have to go against Templar. They are the ones who own Paladin’s inventions. Come to think of it, maybe Paladin would *like* to have her inventions stolen by some Machiavellian superhero who doesn’t play by the rules. Mechwarrior Hypothesis: continual vivisection overloaded Feral’s healing factor and rendered her comatose and possibly dying. Alison forced Max to boost her powers so that she could recover. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 Pancreas. But cancers aren’t usually something you can cure with a transplant. Carl http://healthcare.utah.edu/the-scope/shows.php?shows=0_yagjrx9u Depends on the type. The quite rare neuroendocrine pancreatic tumor can require a (liver) transplant. Agreed that it’s unlikely in this case. Mind you, Feral’s immune system can probably destroy any tumor …. MrSing I’d wait until I’d heard the complete story before I’d be singing Allison praises if I were you. We have no idea what Allison did that enables Feral to not be tortured constantly, and if she is actually free to go or still has to go under the knife but not constantly now. Maybe she did make a clone of Feral who now has to be tortured eternally? Not likely, but we can’t exclude it yet. But no, this doesn’t change my position. Especially because Allison has only been escalating this thing until now, proving that she is very much on the slippery slope. First it was just kidnapping Max, then it was just threatening him, then it was just twisting his arm, then it was just saying that she would keep doing this for as long as she wanted. Insanenoodlyguy I think my “organ farm” theory might be more valid now. we saw Max’s power seemed to be flowing in multiple directions. I think he upped not her (that’d actually make it harder to do what they do), but her already detached but not dead organs, so they are self sufficient now (or run on blood that is also self replicating). Cut a piece of Feral’s Heart off, it grows back, and the piece grows into another heart! All you need at that point is one full set of the organs and blood and reasources to keep them going if they need it, and Feral can go home because the farm no longer depends on her. SJ Wait… did Max powered her regen ability so much she created a homunculus of herself that organs will be farmed from instead? That’d be…. creepy… and so morally grey… I’m sorry, “morally grey”? You think that, if Alison forced Max to use his powers to augment Feral’s powers so much that it created a clone of Feral, and then conscripted that clone to an eternity of organ harvesting, just to free Feral!Prime, who willingly volunteered for the sacrifice… that that would merely qualify as morally gray?! ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 I mean okay it’s almost a typical Sunday but still there’s some shady shades there a tad David Forrest http://strongfemaleprotagonist.com/issue-3/page-59/ is the burger order scene. Lysiuj Those might be sleeping pills, or aspirin. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 She’s immune to drugs! Even psychological effects seem to be foreign to her. Lysiuj [Since I can’t edit my comment yet I’ll just add another one.] I just realized that even if this only happens with anaesthetics, sleeping pills and pain pills do exactly the same things, so not likely to work either. Silly me =] Marc Forrester If Jason Shiga was writing this, that’d be a genuine concern. Marc Forrester If Max knew how to remove powers that whole scene would have been very different. Izo If Max knew how to remove powers, he would have removed powers from the person who was threatening to kill him and was about to break his arm, I’d assume. SJ Did she clone feral? Cue the Eldritch Abomination in 5…4…3… Marc Forrester Emotionally, depends on whether she feels she’s redeemed herself yet. Kate Blackwell To me, no, what she did was still morally wrong (now even moreso since it looks like she did this to Feral without her consent!), an would have been wrong no matter what the outcome. Though if I were in that situation I probably would have done the same thing (though I’d like to think I would have been less rapey about it). Ben Posin I find it interesting that more than one person here has identified this as wrong (sometimes with a capital W!), but then gone on to say it was either necessary or something they would have done themselves. I’m not 100% sure how to square that. But this is tricky and fascinating stuff, which is why we’re all here, right? ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 It’s like when people say they want driveless cars to be programmed so as to kill the driver rather than two walkers in front of it (if it comes to that, which for the record, never does) but absolutely wouldn’t buy one like that. Shane Henry My fear is that Allison used his ‘power boosting’ abilities to make Ferals regeneration so absolute and strong that they are no longer able to operate on her at all. They already mentioned back in the original arc that they had to build special surgical equipment and what not just to get the organs out to begin with. So what if she powered up Feral to the point where her body is to strong to make donation possible? That will be a nightmare that I foresee happening. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 And just for funsies, let’s take a moment to appreciate how greyed out are Alison’s eyes compared to the website header (just look up) or compared to the first time she appeared in color http://strongfemaleprotagonist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/sfp-chapter-two-web.png and the first time she did so while within the story. http://strongfemaleprotagonist.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/sfp-5-11-for-web.png Oh, Al. When your jacket has become bluer than the window to your soul, you might want to consider taking this nap we’ve been speaking of Jack Markley “Folks who were firmly in the oh God Alison what have you done camp: does this change your viewpoint at all?” Not even a little. This makes it worse since Alison clearly did this to help out a personal friend, not for the purpose of helping humanity like she was implying on previous pages. Even if this was for the greater good, what she did was deplorable, and it turns out that wasn’t even the case. Philip Bourque If her organs are self replicating, Feral will burst because she can’t hold all those organs. moriati I wasn’t imagining it that way – I see it working as her healing factor seems to be triggered by damage / removal, i.e. cut her and she heals. Remove her heart and her body regenerates a ‘new’ one. After max-imisation a removed heart could be cut in two and then each half would regenerate to make 2 hearts and so on. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 She seems to not know what this is about, so… : It’s like the phrase goes, “once you coerce one person, …” (in the faraway future where Alison has conquered the world and is now our Supreme Overlord, that’s one) David Gillon The ends don’t cancel out the means. Feral talking and not undergoing surgery while conscious is undoubtedly a good thing Torturing Max, no matter why, is not a good thing. Stephanie The means don’t cancel out the ends either. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 Maybe not the ends– we got there, the good guys won, peace reigns forever– but something is always irreparably lost when the means are immoral. So it’s not enough. It’s not satisfying. And we keep looking until we find better. The Improbable Man Maybe now her healing is so strong that her organs can survive outside her body and can regrow into two copies if split, or something. I think we’ve been too narrow minded on what Max’s boost might do, when we argued against Feral making sense. People’s anomalies have been progressing, and not in the way we might expect. Moonshadow didn’t just get better at turning invisible, she started to be able to create illusions, externalizing what we might think was a self-only power. Maybe Feral can heal other people now. I’m not going to comment on the “is this worth what she did to Max” just for this comic (maybe in a later comic), and this will be my last post for this comic. 🙂 Insanenoodlyguy That doesnt’ make much sense though. Feral being able to heal othe rpeple… how on earth would they know that? Feral’s self replicating ability getting so strong her organs can do it on their own is a progression of a power she already has, you are talking about the development of an entirely new power. Moonshadow was a light and sound bender who got even better at bending light and sound to the point it was an entirely new tier of the power, but it was still the same base ability. Allison reworked what she could do with her field but it still stems from her field. Izo ” Moonshadow didn’t just get better at turning invisible, she started to be able to create illusions, externalizing what we might think was a self-only power.” Moonshadow’s power seem to be based on illusion or some sort of photokinetic ability to bend light, which then progressed from just being able to bend light around herself to create invisibility to being able to bend light in certain patterns to create shapes and colors and images (ie, illusions). Alison’s strength, invulnerability, etc seem to have something to do with a type of psychokinetic field around her (explaining how she can be so strong and invulnerable without any actual change to her body, unlike someone like Cleaver or the people at the Biodynamic convention), similar to Superboy’s Tactile telekinesis mimicking superstrength and invulnerability on a more unconscious level (or if you use another webcomic, Grrlpower, like Maxima’s zero-point telekinesis, which is why large things that she picks up don’t collapse under their own mass… which is actually also similar to Superman’s kryptonian biomatrix which does the same thing). It then progressed to her being able to instinctualy use this psychokinetic ability to fly. Feral’s healing ability is just healing. It doesn’t seem particularly plausible, based on the other examples we’ve seen, that an augmentation of healing would be to be able to heal others, although I suppose one possible augmentation which would be consistent is her BLOOD having a curative factor when put into other people, like Angel from X-Men. Although that could also be really negative if it’s more like Deadpool, who’s healing factor is so out of control that if he didn’t have cancer, the healing factor would literally kill him (and his blood can kill other people because of that, or if someone else mimics his power without having terminal cancer, they will kill themselves). But again, this is all extreme guesswork and not something which would be some sort of ‘natural outcome’ – since the most obvious outcome would be increased or expidited healing instead. Another major problem with this would be the idea that Max was NECESSARY for this, since everyone seems to be naturally gaining these augmentations anyway around the same time – it seems that Alison would have tortured Max to speed up something that would have happened naturally anyway. The Improbable Man Yes, we know now what Moonshadow’s power is based on, did they before she manifested new abilities? Alison’s anomaly was actually reclassified when Dr. Rosenblum learned that she could fly. How are you so sure that Feral’s healing ability is “just healing”? It’s possible Max’s power is to push someone else’s power to its limits. People have made the joke already, but it seems fitting to say he might “max” it out. For all we know, Feral might not have reached her full potential for 200 years. All I’m saying here is that we may have been thinking too inside-the-box when we’ve said that boosting Feral didn’t likely fit the “save countless lives” statement. Whoops, I said I wasn’t going to comment on this comic anymore. Oh well, it has been a few days, at least. Sorry Molly. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 Man I really need to gather all of my thoughts before I comment lest I end up throwing ten of them each pages now but HEY ANOTHER THING: So Patrick knew about Max. He also knew the extent to which such information would have Alison’s gears going and, I’d expect, which decisions she’d take. It kind of matters because, remember, this is the day after they broke up. They had their terrible hedge trimming themed dinner, Alison flew back to Brad’s community, Clevin stumbles upon her the next day (the ellipsis might be longer, but why would it need to be?) and on her way back home that night, she finds the folders in the mail. So we have a few possibilities here. 1. This is just a mere coincidence or Patrick just stumbled upon that information at that time, no ill intentions (in both cases, nothing to explore further) 2. Patrick pushed all the buttons he could to have Alison do what she did the way she went about it, and hmm isn’t that interesting 3. New York postal service is the true mastermind here and it turns out they were the one behind the Conspiracy all along(think about it! Nobody cares about postmen or realizes they’re even there. It just makes absolute perfect sense.) palmvos 1. during the trip to see Tara. Patrick met some people at a dock and exchanged a flash drive for some files. odds are excellent that at least some of Alison’s packet came from that exchange, so some of the timing is just chance- Patrick needed time to process (and copy!) the material before providing it to Alison. 2. oh yes Patrick is the sort who could be playing several games at once. perhaps teaching both Max and Alison a lesson (different in each case) and stopping Tara’s personal martyrdom. we must be patient and wait for more information. I am hoping for a dressing down for Alison or too. dark thought- it may be routine to monitor the communications of convicted felons with visitors. Imagine the fun a certain rich white man could have with a recording of Alison’s and Daniel’s conversation. Tylikcat I declare for Team Postal Service. Rar. Fluffy Dragon Did the doctors ever mention that they had to wait between surgeries for Feral to regenerate the lost organs? Her new level-up may have sped things up so the doctors can do the whole procedure in much less time. Thus allowing Feral to have a life too new. Btw, do we know if max’s levelup is permanent or temporary? David Gillon Feral, thank god! For multiple reasons: i) It’s about the best option for having tortured Max. I still think it was wrong, but at least it wasn’t random. ii) What was happening to Feral was awful (it amounted to Feral arranging to be tortured for the rest of her possibly immortal life) iii) Now we have someone else available to kick Alison in the backside over what she just did. iv) Feralison! v) We don’t know that Feral will approve of Alison’s actions, given the running from the truth self-sacrifice of her own position, but Alison desperately needs a female peer to talk to (Lisa’s too much of a wise elder figure, even if she is technically the same age) vi) Valkyrie+Feral, now that’s going to be an interesting ride! ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 I wonder how Valkyrie could use Tara’s abilities. I don’t want to go back to the eternal “how is Alison’s plan different than any other existing support structure only with one CEO which happens to be able to punch through walls the approximately 0 times it becomes necessary” but, and while I don’t want to dismiss her potential and experience in social matters, hm, I struggle to find examples where super-healing can be beneficial to others when it’s not about either vigilantism or giving away your organs. I mean it’s helpful in I’m sure a myriad of ways– no need to spend the time looking both ways before crossing the street when domestic violence is currently underway, *but*… Also and more importantly: Taralison? Fera-Girl? SJ Folks who were firmly in the oh God Alison what have you done camp: does this change your viewpoint at all? Why would it? Ben Posin I guess that would depend on your axioms, as Gurwara might say. Shweta Narayan This page actually pulls me closer to the “Oh god Alison what have you done” camp 3-I THE INTERROBANG HAS BEEN IN USE FOR CENTURIES OF ENGLISH USE, YOU HALF-COOKED OSTRICH EGG Izo INTERROBANG IS NON-STANDARD PUNCTUATION AND HAS NO PLACE IN CIVILIZED DISCOURSE, YOU MEAN PERSON! ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 Jesus Christ someone just had to make a reference to Hitler at some point I guess, this was inevitable http://putschgirl.tumblr.com/post/148611731532/hitler-had-an-ostrich-skin-wallet-which-contained ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 You don’t get to have your Christ allegory and eat it too. If the scenario only works if medicine doesn’t work on her, you got to commit to it fully I feel. Stephanie Let’s find out what she actually did before jumping to conclusions. Izo That’s why I used the word ‘if.’ 🙂 But sure – I’m going to hold until we find out what she actually did. Jagged We know what she did. She used her superior strength to force her will upon someone else. Forms of rape are a theme in this comic. If this had been done another character I doubt the forum would be so forgiving. Stephanie I disagree with the rape comparison as much as I always have, but that’s not what this comment chain was about anyway. Yes, we already know that she coerced Max. We’re talking about what specifically she coerced him to do, which we don’t yet know. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 I’m… kind of far from being libertarian. Unless “against any and all breach of consent” qualifies in which case wow is the bar low. SJ Why would it be wasted? The past three weeks have been rich in plot and character development. I’m sure everyone on both sides of the argument would like to see a character express our viewpoint with SFP’s characteristic eloquence, but it’s not like that’s the only thing that matters. …. :: takes deep breath, counts to ten, exhales :: Let me be clear about something, and I would like for you to understand that this is not personal, that I say this with all due respect, and with no anger or malice: I am not going to debate this with you, or anybody else, for that matter. I am not going to be made to “defend” my position on this particular subject. Nobody but me gets to decide what my time is worth, and I will not be made to justify the value that I place on my time. I didn’t say anything about whether your time would be wasted; I didn’t say anything about whether any other reader’s time would be wasted. If I say that I will consider the past three weeks of my time reading this webcomic to have been wasted, if Tara doesn’t give Alison the verbal smackdown I’m waiting for, then I will have considered my time to have been wasted, and that’s all there is to it. End of Line. Rumble in the Tumble NOOOOOO YOU MUST EXPLAIN IT TO ME, OR ELSE I’LL SLAM YOUR HEAD ON THE TABLE AND MAKE YOU DISCUSS IT WHICH I MIGHT DO ANYWAYS Stephanie Jeez, okay. “I meant that it would be a waste of my time, specifically” would have sufficed. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 Last time they spoke, she was pretty annoyed (albeit emotionally compromised in all sorts of ways) that Alison would try to convince her to stop doing what she was doing. Her decision was set and it seems to me that it mattered a lot to her to have made that decision, fencing off against the “smart” people of the world she was always bitter with. And now it seems Alison just came by saying “I made your decision moot”. The same Alison who thought her decision didn’t matter because it doesn’t change anything for the rest of the world. Again, unless she really did save the world with one punch earlier tonight, what’s the difference between doing what she did to Max and to her (that is, acting without telling her) and preventing her to go through with the operations just by force? Santiago Tórtora I don’t know why people assume Feral is some sort of goody-two-shoes who will be upset that Allison hurt somebody. She was a very violent vigilante who had a change of heart and became an extreme utilitarian. She probably won’t care that much. Newbie From a narrative point of view I don’t think it will make much sense for Allison to pull a complete karma Houdini here, it’s too contradictory to the SFP’s overall message (Unless I’ve interpreted it completely wrong). I expect that this will come back to bite her SOMEHOW, it’s just a matter of seeing when. I’ll agree with you though that I’m honestly not certain if it makes character sense for Feral to do it. Antiheroes can be a bit hard to predict, seemingly reformed ones even more so. It’s just that, from where else stand in the story right now -Allison doesn’t care about Max’s opinion, Brad and Lisa aren’t involved in this plotline, and wouldn’t it be rich if PATRICK tried to give her crap about methods- Feral seems best set up for it. In any case, I was at least half joking in my other comment. Person A lies to Person B about C and then B finds out by accident and gets in a dramatic fight with A about it ending in A having to prove themselves and then there’s an awkward forgiveness scene is a pretty common story set up. (…Which I’m kind of hoping we dodge because the “liar revealed” plotline has never been my favorite) Santiago Tórtora Exactly. She specifically phrased it as a couple of hypothetical questions to protect Max’s identity. Tylikcat Well, what I was trying to propose was something that would increase the rate at which donor organs were being produced, which as a side effect also happened to free Feral (after all, having to harvest them from Feral was a huge bottleneck.) So yeah, a lot *more* people would be saved. Feral would be just one of them. …though likely the one Alison really cared about. I don’t know it was anything like this benign, of course. palmvos your mundane explanations are not as fun! besides.. i doubt it. i suspect we are looking at an art mismatch, or a new hamburger as the old one got a little cold. (and eaten) palmvos technically true.. but last we knew she was supposed to be in that special table to allow herself to be serially vivisected. that she isn’t gives us strong indications that she was involved. Richard King What we know is 1) As a consequence of what Max and Alison did, Alison flew to the hospital where Feral was and halted the vivisection. 2) When she arrived there, Alsion presented Feral with a whisky and a burger – something Feral asked for if Alison ever found a ‘one punch’ solution to the problem of healing people. Amping Feral’s self- healing capabilities wouldn’t be a one punch solution to health problems for everyone, just Feral, so it’s UNLIKELY that Feral was the target of the amping. Mitchell Lord …When you make it this specific, this… I don’t know if what Allison did is morally right. I’m not going to go into a lengthy discussion of ethics…I just know…I couldn’t tell her what she was doing is wrong. Especially with the magnitude of Feral’s action. palmvos if she metabolizes anesthetics then it stands to reason that drugs (mild poisons that change how the body operates) would not be permitted by Tara’s power to have an effect, which means…. Tara drank for the taste. and if she was ever drunk it was an act of some kind. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 You protect the ones you love from torture and pain, and that is just it. Aaaaah if only there wasn’t such a thing a complete and utter imbalance of power between humans so that when the dominant group does it using this very justification while oppressing others, life would be so sweet MrSing It’s pretty interesting to think of love as the destructive force it often is. It doesn’t get mentioned as much as hate, but the two are very often the cause of one and the other. The more and more that I think about it, the things that make us so very human are maybe the sole reason the world is such an awful place to live in. Maybe being human isn’t noble or even something we should want? I’m no Buddhist by any means, but I think they are right when they say life is suffering and suffering is caused by our wants. Maybe the only way to live in a peaceful and just world is to completely let go of your own ego. Maybe being human simply isn’t the right choice for living in an uncaring universe in which we and our actions are meaningless and ultimately forgotten in the grand scale? Maybe that’s madness, but the universe never seemed all that rational to me in the first place. Tylikcat I really don’t know. There are a very few people who I would trust to make that kind of decision for me, and even then, everyone knows I’d rather be involved. The only justification I can see for doing this without more discussion and deliberation was Max’s being super closeted… (Well, that and Tara’s suffering for X amount more time*, and possibly any change in the donor schedule though we have a complete lack of real information at the moment.) For that matter, my medical directives include a list of people who absolutely aren’t allowed to be part of any such decisions, because in my family it pays to be clear about these things. (And because some people have registered intent to interfere.**) I can’t speak for their relationship. I don’t know what’s okay between them. It seems like the kind of thing that Alison is prone to messing up. (I mean, even in the most positive light considering the outcome, Alison’s feelings for Tara seem pretty fraught. But maybe that’s because I want them not to be. I mean, I want Alison to hold on until she knows Tara has herself together, and then I want her to cry at Tara’s feet.) * Though seriously, when you’ve already been doing it for so long… Subjectively, I suspect this mattered to Alison a lot more than it did to her. ** Okay, I can’t just leave that. My mother was horrified by the thought of me donating eggs, because anyone raising children with my genetic material can’t possibly know what they’re getting into. She’s also horrified by the thought of anyone getting donor organs from me, because OMG, what if they get memories of mine or some such? She saw this television show…! (Yes, I’m generically horrified by my family, but apparently some of them are pretty horrified by me, too. Better to die than to risk getting one of my organs…) ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 Well ma’am I’ll have you know that it definitely happens in Metal Gear Solid 2 (wherein a quintuple agent cowboy who got his arm cut off by a resuscitated cyborg ninja replaced it with the arm of the evil clone of the “greatest solider of the 20th c.” –and I say evil clone because the protagonist happens to be also a clone of the same guy but not evil– and the spirit of that evil clone reemerged through that transplanted arm which ended up foiling plans –of a third clone who just so happens to have been the 43rd President of the United States– to tackle a global conspiracy ordered by omniscient AIs constructs built out of humanity’s collective consciousness to control thought by way of the involvement of giant mecha robots somehow) So it cannot possibly be fake. Insanenoodlyguy Slipperly Slope isn’t always a fallacy though. She severealy compromised her code, which to our knowledge she has only done once before (incidentally, this also concerned Feral. Might get easier each time. Or at least more tempting. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 why does everybody forget that time she threw a mug into a guy’s face palmvos if i had to pick which i’d say it was sent before Patrick knew of the breakup. the file was marked Proposed Business associates or something along those lines. that’s wildly wrong for immediately after a breakup, seems more like a ‘hey your boyfriend has something you need’ and yes- Patrick would not have a lot of levers to pull on Max. this might have looked like a simple easy choice. great now i want Alison and Patrick to talk… oh and he might have some really nice things to say to Alison…. Tylikcat BTW, I’m not actually shipping them. I mean, yeah, I suppose it could go there, but I mean love interpreted more broadly. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 …does shipping necessitates that the story give some credibility to the pairing, offer the possibility that it could go there? I thought anything was shippable if your imagination was wild enough and you know mine, I ship Alison with the Moon she once threw nuclear payloads on as an approach tactic Insanenoodlyguy Putting forth a theory now in case I can “I CALLED IT” later: If the conspiracy is what Pat thinks it is, this gets their attention. Allison gets pulled into that because whatever she did, it’s undone (either by death of feral, destruction of the organ farm, etc, and possibly the death of Max, made to look like a suicide perhaps to double down and target Allison as well) Zac Caslar I get it: Allison used Max to clone Tara. Clever. I applaud her choice. It’ll come with a cost, but she chose well. If this leads us into the ethics of cloning I’m game. Here’s an axiom for discussion: axioms are useless. No behavior is automatic or absolute. No slope is so slippery that you _must_ slide down. Every choice is a gamble because no choice can be made from a perspective of perfect understanding. And the hardest choice is to accept that. Allison will be wrong and possibly in enormous ways. But this also might not be one of them and the question you must face is: do you want the best outcome for whatever the present problem is, or do you just want to be _right_? Manuel Simone To my shame I almost didn’t recognized Feral at first. I recognized her only after her “special” eyes. Also, I like how sweet Alison can be with Feral, love everytime Alison’s sweet side but I dislike when she becomes too dark, even to a point to want to torture a person who never hurt her/her friends before. weedgoku “countless lives” sure. This was an entirely personal and selfish motivation. She assaulted, abused and lied to someone for personal reasons to perform an action on another person without their consent. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 “Uh, this is an awfully weird question to ask, Alison. You know there are some things that I have to keep classified from you and while it is common knowledge that power amplifiers have been known to exist, all of them have been either wiped out or hidden away for their safety and I absolutely have the complete opposite of any kind of authorization to reveal anything about it specifically to you. You wouldn’t happen to know some things you shouldn’t, would you?” “Nope.” “Okay! Well Ms. Cooper’s cells would just happen to have the capacity replicate even cut off from her viable self. I hope you find this sudden bit of random curiosity of yours totally unrelated to the events of your life or your ongoing plans as interesting as I do!” Mechwarrior Remember Chapter 4 where Alison went back home because something bad had happened, and she had a bunch of flashbacks to her dog so everyone thought that the bad thing would have been the dog dying? Only it turned out that the real thing was that her dad had been diagnosed with cancer? The author is quite willing to throw curveballs at the audience by telling them less than the amount of information than Alison has. Also, most of the speculation is that Max has permanently boosted Feral’s powers, either to the point where her organs can perpetually regenerate on their own so she’s no longer needed as a donor or to the point where she heals too quickly to be cut open. Both suggest a monumental amount of power on Max’s part- it’s pretty much unheard of for a character with a power-boosting ability to have it apply permanently unless they’re a god or godlike being. So that seems less likely to me. Dirka Worth it… …! …? Michael Smith If all it did was give Feral one good night’s sleep, I’m still all for it! Jac We’ll see.. Jagged The story has definitely taken an interesting turn, but the danger is that I have lost all sympathy for Alison. I am guessing this is deliberate on the writer’s behalf. Forms of rape have be a theme in this comic. From the villain with mind control powers to the drunk girl at the party. Now we have Alison forcing her will onto someone else. I am sure Max has been made unlikeable partly to see if we (the audienace) would fall into line 😉 If this was one of my games and a player had done what Alison had done, Max would get promoted to lead antagonist. He has everything the role needs. Wealth and power. He has so many options too. He could go public, reveal his power. He could even claim her recent abilities were because of him. He could start hiring thugs with powers. He could start hiring heroes with powers. Many don’t seem to liek Alison. Then he could boost them all. It would be a foolish Alison who just turned up at Max’s again. Stephanie All rape is coercion, but not all coercion is rape. I don’t see what Alison did as a rape allegory. Izo Hey now, if Feral doesnt go along with the world saving plan, Alison can just use her superstrength to threaten to kill her, right? Drop her in a volcano if she doesn’t comply. That’s the new Alison now, after all – Do what I say for the good of the world or I will hurt or kill you. Or does that only apply to rich white guys who are jerks? Stephanie I doubt that would be a viable option. I think Feral, who has already voluntarily agreed to spend a lifetime suffering much worse than Alison could ever do to her, would be a hell of a lot harder to intimidate than Max was. Tylikcat Whereas I react extremely badly to most opiates, and that just means I get prescribed the really good stuff post surgery. (Which I also react badly to. Though Tapentadol makes me less sick than most, and from a purely medicinal chemistry standpoint is one of the most entertaining molecules I’ve come across.) Seriously, if I had any interest in dealing – as opposed to being highly motivated not to – I’d could have had a great little starter kit. David Gillon I’ve twice had anaesthesiologists discussing putting me on patient controlled anaesthesia, and then deciding to wait and see. I think they were deliberately trolling me. Matthew Dowd So which body horror thing do you thing happened to Feral? Bifurcated and heal cloned?, Organs giving self healing, causing everyone who receives them to get tumors?, partial decaptiation, or removing the higher function portion of the brain and supercharging healing to the extent that that heals into a feral with all of the memories of feral while they harvest brainstem feral for parts? Stephanie That last one’s a pretty clever idea. It would keep the donations going without any conscious entity suffering for it. Only then, sentient Feral would probably still want to keep donating so she could donate twice as fast. Also Feral has regenerated brain tissue before, so I guess brainstem Feral would probably just heal back into regular Feral. Matthew Dowd You use something like metal or plastic cap, something that retards brain regrowth… Weatherheight ::gingerly accepts the carrot while mumbling something about apples being good too:: Mitchell Lord Here’s something…a lot of people go on about how Allison’s actions are unjusifiable… But…how justifiable are MAX’S actions, now that we know what she was begging him to help with. He, quite literally, was asked to save a person’s life from the most brutal torment ever, at minimal risk to himself. And he said “No…I’d rather let her die, just to piss you off.” This Guy If you don’t think he should have that right, what punishment would you inflict upon him for failing to help? Ben Posin We still don’t know what happened–it’s possible whatever did happen will result in a ton more organs available than what Feral was able to provide. SJ I don’t think you understand what I was saying. Not “Organ farm Feral” where they made a second feral to do all of this for her, no. A literal ORGAN FARM. As in, the organs are all separate. This isn’t another feral on the straps, it’s a room full of organs in jars. And when you need, say, a new kidney, you pop off the top, cut the kidney in half, and watch as it turns into two new kidneys. Then you put one kidney back in the jar, and put the other one in the cooler to go wherever. There is no brain because nobody scooped out a brain. There isn’t even a Feral. There’s just organs. That can be farmed. Let’s stipulate, for the sake of argument, that how you imagine this is consistent with how Max’s buff would have affected Feral. There’s no canon evidence to indicate that the SFP-verse is sufficiently technologically advanced to have developed a working apparatus to sustain such an organ farm. I don’t think that Paladin’s genius extends to medicine and/or bioengineering, so it seems improbable that she could have built one, unless she has been similarly buffed. And, even if she could, Templar still owns the rights to anything she builds, so who’s to say that Patrick would even let her use it? Insanenoodlyguy Heh? You don’t need any of that stuff. You need some goddamn jars, or tins. (I imagine filled with blood) maybe some saline solution or whatnot. Feral’s regeneration outstrips the laws of physics, like most healing factors, at default. You see any IV’s going into her in those pages? They scoop organ’s out, she regrows them. Again, I don’t think they buffed Feral. I think he buffed THE ORGAN ROOM. As they would surely have one since not every organ would be shipped right away. Organs are still alive during transfers, otherwise they’d be useless, right? And that’s normal organs. I imagine her’s already stayed fresh longer then normal. So buffed, each of her organs became able to do what she could already do, which is at least a plausible progression of her abilities. If they did buff Feral though, she’d only need to have gone on the table one more time, for a harder but still possible extraction of each organ one more time, even if new levels of regeneration made it harder they’d only need to do it once. I figure leave each of them in a jar half full of her own blood (which would presumably also stay alive) and as I said, you don’t need a fancy setup at that point, though I imagine they are in a room kept sterilized, but you could probably just use a meat cleaver at that point. If you still don’t like this theory (and for all I know this upcoming tuesday it’ll be shot to hell), what’s yours? That’s not a challenge, I’m curious. SJ Feral’s regeneration outstrips the laws of physics, like most healing factors, at default. You see any IV’s going into her in those pages? They scoop organ’s out, she regrows them. Again, I don’t think they buffed Feral. I think he buffed THE ORGAN ROOM. As they would surely have one since not every organ would be shipped right away. Organs are still alive during transfers, otherwise they’d be useless, right? And that’s normal organs. I imagine her’s already stayed fresh longer then normal. So buffed, each of her organs became able to do what she could already do, which is at least a plausible progression of her abilities. If they did buff Feral though, she’d only need to have gone on the table one more time, for a harder but still possible extraction of each organ one more time, even if new levels of regeneration made it harder they’d only need to do it once. I figure leave each of them in a jar half full of her own blood (which would presumably also stay alive) and as I said, you don’t need a fancy setup at that point, though I imagine they are in a room kept sterilized, but you could probably just use a meat cleaver at that point. That doesn’t make any sense for two reasons: First, it takes more than a “jar full of blood” to keep an organ viable. You couldn’t keep a kidney alive indefinitely in a jar full of blood any more than you could keep a dolphin alive in a sealed aquarium filled with water. Without a way to continuously oxygenate the blood, the blood will eventually essentially become toxic to the organ. And, even if you want to handwave this part because of “comic book physics,” that still leaves… Second, it’s already been established in canon that Feral’s anomaly does not transfer to her organs, once they leave her body (cite). Which means that buffing a room full of her organs should have no effect on the organs. As to what my theory is? My theory is that Alison’s plan isn’t going to work, which is only one of several reasons why I think that Alison’s plan is stupid, and that her actions were unjustifiable. Beyond that, I don’t actually have a theory, because I think that Alison’s plan is so ill-conceived, that anything that possibly could happen exceeds the scope of my imagination. Giacomo Bandini “Second, it’s already been established in canon that Feral’s anomaly does not transfer to her organs, once they leave her body (cite). ” Not exacty. Patrick said “with no risk of transferring disease or anomaly”. That means transferring to other people. It does not mean that the organ cannot regenerate itself. SJ I know that we, as readers, tend to handwave a lot of stuff “because comics,” but what in the world would lead you to believe that Feral’s anomaly could pass from her to her organs, but not from the organs to a recipient? ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 Yes? But then again it’s in the comfort and safety of my imagination, I can disregard any and all canon I so wish. And I mean isn’t that kind of the point anyway, since you’re pairing up people that aren’t canonically paired up anyway? Why acknowledge some past events if you choose to disregard the present ones? I mean, when you can disregard it all at your leisure. Shweta Narayan I’m… not ignoring the present event, I’m flinching a whole lot at it because the past colors the present? To be clear, it’s Feral I empathize/associate with here, and from her perspective that I go “ow” at shipping them. Which is not a thing I’m any good at ignoring. I’ve been hurt by straight girls rather like Al (though I never dared trying to kiss any of them), and maybe that’s making me read way too much into one past event, or remember it as worse than it was; but I got the sense that some of Feral’s martyrdom comes from the damage Al did to her already-fragile sense of identity and self-worth, and that while Al truly cares about her, she hasn’t ever understood where she’s coming from. Given that, *ow*, because I suspect Al is going to hurt her again, and badly, with what she thinks is her one-punch solution now. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 “Also Tara would you *please* take notice of our internal policy of not hooking up with the women you go rescue it’s the third time this week and you’re making all the other staffers exceedingly complexed about their sexual proficiency” Stephanie I don’t know what you mean with the last bit. I haven’t seen anyone calling anybody names in these discussions. The means can cancel out the ends if the equation comes out equal, but they don’t poison the ends or strip them of their significance. If I save one person’s life by killing another person, the equation works out badly (harm of breaking a principle + harm of 1 death vs benefit of 1 life saved) and I’ve made a bad decision. However, the person I saved is no less alive. Even if I kill ten people or a hundred to save them, they’re no less alive. We can put different weights on how harmful it inherently is to break the principle of nonmaleficence, but we can’t remove the ends from the equation entirely. pidgey The means can certainly poison the ends and strip them of significance. As an example: I want to help the homeless, so while they’re asleep I load them into trucks and carry them to random people’s houses, and deposit them inside. The homeless are now sleeping indoors! Yay! Except that the ultimate result of this would be backlash against all homeless people, and more than likely a few deaths, and ultimately the benefit of a night indoors would pale in comparison to the downsides. This might sound like a contrived example, and it is a bit, but actually when people talk about the ends not justifying the means, the ENTIRE REASON they do that is because it is nearly always true (maybe even actually always, depending on your definitions) that misapplied means really do poison the ends and strip them of significance. Stephanie “Except that the ultimate result of this would be backlash against all homeless people, and more than likely a few deaths, and ultimately the benefit of a night indoors would pale in comparison to the downsides.” Those sure sound like ends to me. Those ends are bad because they’re bad, not because they’re good but the means are bad. When I say “the means can’t poison the ends and strip them of significance,” I mean that if you achieve a good end by bad means, the good you accomplished doesn’t stop existing just because your means were bad. The good exists, and you have to weigh it against the badness of the means to decide whether it was worth it. Throwing a bunch of homeless people into random houses would be accomplishing bad ends by bad means, which is not what I was talking about at all. pidgey Okay, but you do see the problem with that kind of restriction, right? If you only limit yourself to “good” ends, *intended* ends, then you can’t talk about taking any actions at all, because every action has unintended consequences. The example I gave had you achieving your goal: you wanted homeless people to be able to sleep indoors, and you got it. Good end. But not the only end. You talk about killing someone to save a life, but 1) you can never actually know if your choice will actually save a life, and 2) you can never actually know what other consequences will come about. This is the fault with results-based thinking. If it was as easy as “a life for a life” then no one would bother debating the issue. Every action has both good and bad consequences. The function of morality is to guide people to make their choices in line with what society has come to identify as the actions with the highest rate of positive consequences. If you decide to make a choice counter to that, there are two possible reasons: either you have better information about this specific situation that means you *know* the positive consequences will be better than those which society’s dictates would create (this is infrequent to the point of being implausible under most circumstances I can think of, although I can think of some, mostly involving time travel or contact with a new, more advanced and educated culture) or else you *know* you’re making a bad decision and just hoping it will work out. Stephanie Of course you can’t know for sure what the result will be. That’s why you have to account for probability. Three million people are about to die of an illness; do you distribute the vaccine with a 100% chance to save exactly one million, or the vaccine with a 66% chance to save everyone and a 33% chance to save no one? The second one works out to an average 2 million people saved, so it’s the right choice, even though there’s a chance of saving no one. You can also make reasonable predictions about whether something you’re doing is likely to have bad side effects and whether what you’re trying to achieve is likely to be worth those side effects. This is basically how all medical treatment works, so I wouldn’t exactly call it “infrequent to the point of being implausible.” We don’t let someone die of appendicitis just because achieving the good end of “the infected appendix is removed” also requires the side effect of “they have to recover from a incision and there’s a risk of surgical infection.” Just because we don’t absolutely 100% know that the outcome will be a net positive doesn’t mean we can’t reasonably infer that the chances of a net positive are much greater than if we do nothing. “The homeless people are technically sleeping indoors” only qualifies as a good end in a “technically correct” way that no reasonable person would use. Basically all of your objections c ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 And this is where we remind everybody that morality is far from being something with commonly agreed upon rules. For my money, none of these are immoral. And that’s not the question here. What she did is indisputably immoral and even she knows it. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 That’s why I mentioned that Alison’s point when they talked about this last time they saw was that it didn’t matter. The world doesn’t substantially change with ten more healthy donor hearts a day, in her eyes (although it does both in Tara’s and mine) If she doesn’t care about the insignificant-in-the-face-of-global-issues number of people Tara saves and neither does she about Tara’s wishes, forcing her out of the hospital is just simpler. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 The thing is, I would be very surprised if she actually did Save the World(TM) and everything is now perfect with what she had Max do. That was Tara’s condition. Giacomo Bandini “Alison, why the burger and the Bourbon? Did you find a way to save the world?” “No. I find the way to save you. And you mean the world to me, so i figured it’s pretty much the same.” ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 I suggest transplanting yourself your own organs to have access to these memories you apparently don’t already have by virtue of being the person making them…? ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 My, definitely no arguing. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 He told Al a bunch of nonsense which didn’t add up and that she called out. The mug was thrown not because he was a villain doing villainous things but because he had spent the evening trying to convince her of that for… reasons and she was irate at being kept in the dark on said reasons (and also being treated as a moron for thinking he could get away with his lies) ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 (I don’t *really* invoke the mug throwing incident in full serious mode.) ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 Let me tell you my opinion about the ongoing US presidential election ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 Well the argument here I think is not “human” in the anthropological sense but the moral sense. Which you only have you lousy English speaking people to blame for making the same word despite it meaning wildly different things ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 Works only when you believe it does, which, I’d wager, her experience wouldn’t encourage her to. “Oh sweet, pills with a suspicious taste of inoffensive sugar! I’m sure this’ll help me deal with the constant pain despite the fact that the most intense drugs on Earth have literally no effect on me” Newbie Actually, there is evidence to suggest the placebo effect works even when you know it’s happening. https://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/placebos-work-even-when-you-know-10-12-23/ ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 You’re doing the thing you’re criticizing. I think. Maybe you’re not and in that case disregard that comment. When we say that comparing these things doesn’t make sense and is hurtful to their understanding, it’s both about saying that they are similar but also that they are dissimilar. These issues are even further distanced than that. The point is that making a hierarchy of bad things doesn’t compute and is purposeless for anyone not in the business of fearmongering, not that one specific hierarchy is more sensible than the others. Arklyte And on a side note… when will see the woman who provoked Cleaver to go out of hiding again? Will we find out for what reason? Was he a distraction of some kind? zellgato Whelp. pretty sure she had Feral’s power removed. without asking. well no i gues probably not. If that was the power I’d think Max would’ve nulled megagirl when she got threatening? So something else..? Ellie K Max said a couple pages ago that he has the power to “make other kids more powerful”, the comic itself never said that he had the ability to remove powers. I think you might be thinking of the early speculation among readers in the comment section. It’s possible that Alison increased Feral’s self-healing abilities to the point where she’d be able to undergo surgery without feeling pain. We don’t really know if the effects of Max’s powers are permanent. zellgato I duno about other comments, since I only occasionally read it. but I was thinking removed or lowered the power. because if you can raise something, you should be able to lower it. It woudln’t be surprising if the report mostly talked purely about increasing powers though because that is more interesting. Outside of jailing situations anyway. but mostly I was assuming that she did something to the power.. because she’s not in surgery at all at the moment, she heals fast enough that realistically they’d only occasionally take a break from it. more so as implied by the line “she hasn’t slept in a long time” so they haven’t had a break in a long time. Or maybe she had another friend who can make a body double. and then had max power up the body double or something. Either way it’ll be crazy interesting Stephanie Toward the end of the Feral arc, Feral told Alison that if Alison ever found the “one-punch” solution to the world’s problem that would make her endless organ donation unnecessary, she could bring her some bourbon and a big-ass burger and they’d do that instead. Alison is now here with the burger and bourbon. So presumably, the reason Feral isn’t in surgery is because Alison is putting a putative one-punch solution into action, and Feral may no longer need to donate organs. Feral also takes a break from surgery when the machines that hold her open need repairing, but it would be a big coincidence for that to be happening at this exact time, so it’s probably that the doctors recognize Alison’s plan as one that means Feral doesn’t need to donate anymore. Danygalw She said Max would be “saving countless lives” so he can’t have *removed* her powers. Insanenoodlyguy I did say it was a theory. Might look pretty crazy in a few chapters, or I might be able to say I called it. Hence calling it. 😛 And as to your second question, it’s a lot harder to kill Alison in her sleep. Giacomo Bandini No. That is not the case. She doesn’t violate her personal code for “better things”, she violated it to save a loved one. It’s an entirely different situation. Yirtimd2 Hmm, I didn’t think about possibility that she is a lesbian. But now it all make sense – she don’t like boys, she always find some flaws in them and she use it to break with them or even to not start it, but she is very careful about Feral, and she doesn’t care about her flaws. Now it all make sense, yeah. Stephanie Is it not possible for her to have done it for both of those reasons? I don’t even think she ultimately violated her code. She carried out her axiom at the expense of a lesser principle. Lostman Here the thing: Alison is going to become a terrorist before any of that. As much she is a force of nature. The elites among others of the world will resist her to the bitter end. Yirtimd2 I don’t think she need to be a terrorist. Terrorists use fear and terror because they are weak and nobody will support them in good will. Alison has the power, if she wanted she could get a massive support and make her own army like Superman in Injustice without using terror. She can just make a stylish super-heroic suit, wear it and make an announcement on TV or even Youtube and tell people something like “I know how to build a better world, I just need your support! Together we will make it a better place to everyone!” – and something more about ecology, economical crysis, depletion of natural resources, pedophilia, corruption, Injustice, all it must be accompanied by orchestral music – and millions of fanatics will join her. Elites can start war against her, but she can literally fly to them and rip them apart by her own hands and live-translate it on tv, twitch and youtube – and after that no politician or oligarch will make a wrong decision. And then she will become a dictator, not terrorist. Izo Actually many of the people who followed Superman did so because he WAS essentially a terrorist. Hal Jordan followed him because of that, especially after what Superman did to Billy. Only Flash made a turn back to heroics afterwards. Hal made excuses for Superman instead. “And then she will become a dictator, not terrorist.” She can be both. The majority of dictators, fictional and non-fictional, do rule through fear and instilling a feeling of terror in those who would oppose them (at least in part). MrSing I’m sorry to hear you’ve been having such a bad time in the discussion these last few weeks, Izo. I don’t know if it helps, but I usually think you bring up pretty interesting points, even in the past when we had differing opinions about the comic. Izo Thanks. I appreciate that. MrSing Just because the world is already irreparably lost does not mean we should damage it even further. Not that you meant that of course, I believe you do want to make the world a better place, as most humans do. But it is my sincere belief that you can’t force people to do good and that it is not our place to do so. Since we are all fallible and predicting the consequences of our actions or the cost is in nearly all human affairs next to impossible. The best we can do is stopping others from violating the rights of other people. And every time someone takes it upon themselves to force or punish someone for things that are out of their control to bring about a greater good we kid ourselves into thinking that we can make that call. And it works. it works great right up to the point where it doesn’t. The inevitable point where we make a mistake. And than we end up with the world we have today. Giacomo Bandini I’m not painting anything nice. I’m rappresenting just what has happened here: a bad action for a good result. But on the example you just made, let’s hear what Denzel Washington has to say about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jey7pZxwWl8 John Q is a 2002 American film follows John Quincy Archibald (Denzel Washington), a father and husband whose son is diagnosed with an enlarged heart and then finds out he cannot receive a transplant because HMO insurance will not cover it. Therefore, he decides to take a hospital full of patients hostage until the hospital puts his son’s name on the recipient’s list. Would you call Denzel ‘s character a Tyrant? a bully? I don’t think so. Look, i m not advocating that Alison and Jon Q. are good actions, or even right: all i’m saying is these actions are humane actions. Can i be honest with you? if the scenario you described to me happened, if the surgery could save my mother’s life and he refused for personal reasons, not life or death reasons, like because his career may potentially be damaged, and he may not get the promotion he was waiting… i do not know what i would do. And if, like Alison, i happened to have the physical skill, the experience and the stomach to do something like that…. well, maybe i ll really do it. Will it be right? will it be wrong? My mother will live. Aaaaannnnddd of course, she would never want me to do that, and she would be so mad at me when she would discover it. There is some kind of circular beauty in this kind of situations. Izo I really hated that movie. MrSing Didn’t the guy in that movie basically steal a hearth, ensuring another innocent person dies, cause thousands of dollars in damage, nearly kill a person by disturbing a hospital, endanger and threaten innocent people with a deadly weapon. and encourage other people to commit terrorism to get organs by his example? For someone who wants to save sick people, he sure has a strange way of going about it, by hurting people who didn’t even have anything to do with his son or the terrible insurance policies in the first place. phantomreader42 Didn’t the guy in that movie basically steal a hearth, ensuring another innocent person dies, cause thousands of dollars in damage, nearly kill a person by disturbing a hospital, endanger and threaten innocent people with a deadly weapon. and encourage other people to commit terrorism to get organs by his example? I don’t remember enough of the movie, I’m not even sure if I actually saw all of it. But I got the impression that at the end he ended up dead and donated his own heart (since he’d be a match). Of course, before that, his only option to get a heart for his kid would be to delay a transplant for someone else, which would be expected to result in that person’s death, but it’s possible the two patients were in different enough circumstances that whoever got delayed was capable of surviving longer (though in that case that should have been taken into account when ranking the recipients). And yeah, seeing that kind of thing work would encourage a certain variety of desperate person to engage in terrorism. But I doubt the guy was thinking about incentives like that, he was just trying to save a specific sick person. Giacomo Bandini All points considered in the movie. I disagree about the “stealing” of the organs: the heart was avaible, it was only an economic problem. And who ever said that john Q. wanted to help “sick people”, or that he’s a hero of any sort? he want to save his son. I repeat my point: John Q. actions, and by extension, those of Alison, are humane. Not good or right,neither Evil or Wrong: just humane. MrSing You can’t wash away the morality of your actions by saying that they are humane. They may make us understand and sympathise with the person taking the action, but the action itself can still be judged as wrong. Or, as a great man once said: “Cool motive, still murder.” Giacomo Bandini Actually i ve read many of your comments. and i still don’t think that i understand the difference from what i do say and what you said. But that’s probably me. Anyway… Coerction is not Rape. It’s a part of rape, of course, but the fundamental part is violation of intimacy. It means, by violence or intimidation, or trickery, to penetrate the intimity of that person. A sacred part of himself, without consent. And Alison has not done that. You said that the only thing that counts is what has been done to the INNOCENT VICTIM, Max, not the time. Let’s check it: his head was slammed on a table, his arm has been stretched after his back, he has been kidnapped, and menaced to be stranded on a desert island in the middle of the ocean. An horrible experience, i agree. Even life changing, maybe. But what was happening to the other INNOCENT VICTIM, Tara? Her heart has been ripped from her chest while she is awake ten times a day. Doesn’t this image utterly terrifies you? It terrifies me, for sure. Not only her heart, her liver, kidneys, lungs. For all her life. It will disgust me, if it was happening to a villain. Even it is was happening to Hitler, it would be to much. But to an innocent person? And to think that this innocent person is doing that for us. I’m sorry for Max, really. He is a dick, but he have some solid motivation to say no. But i’m also sorry for Tara, for her destiny. I will very like to imagine a world where they both can be happy, but that is not possible, because this is a world where ten thousand of lives every year are lost, when they can be saved. What will i choose, in Alison shoes.? I don’t know. I know i will be terribly conflicted. Hurting someone who does not deserve it, or let someone suffer for my and my loved ones behalf? Because Tara is doing it for me. An hypotethical me, at least. Yes, i never asked her to do that, but as long as me and my loved ones are potentially recipient for one of her organs, we are benefitting from her sacrifice. So, i don’t undestand how people can be so quick to condamn Alison for her choice to hurt Max to help Tara. From my point of view,every person who condamn Alison’s action should also make sure to could never get Tara’s organs. Izo “Coerction is not Rape. It’s a part of rape, of course, but the fundamental part is violation of intimacy.” Please… I’m going to again explain what an analogy is. Especially since you’ve ALMOST hit upon it, then ignore it. It’s extremely frustrating now. An analogy points out the similarities between both rape and what Alison did. In this case, it’s the mentality of the perpetrator and the use of coercion to achieve a goal. Just calling it coercion minimizes what Alison did, plus ignores her —–>mentality<—– while doing it The only difference between a rape and what Alison did is the goal (at least partially not the goal. In rape, the goal is power over the other person with sex being the result. With what Alison did, the goal is power over the other person with making Max use his powers being the result. With the exception of that LAST part, both are identical. Hence why it's an ANALOGY. "It means, by violence or intimidation, or trickery, to penetrate the intimity of that person. A sacred part of himself, without consent. And Alison has not done that." That's EXACTLY what Alison did! By violence (head slammed against the table, attempting to break his arm until he complied) or intimidation (I will drop you in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean,where you will die, if you do not do what I say), or trickery (I'm coming into your house to talk to you calmly – whoops no I'm not – I was only going to insult you then guilt you then hurt you! The talking was a ruse!) to penetrate the intimity (intimity means the quality of being intimate or private – Max's powers are private to him and he's tried to keep it secret) of that person. A sacred part of himself, without consent (he did not consent. He said no multiple times, then even said no after she was threatening him until she used phyiscal force to cause him pain to show that she WOULD kill him if he did not comply). Alison has done ALL of that. "Doesn't this image utterly terrifies you? It terrifies me, for sure." It terrifies me more that Tara voluntarily is CHOOSING to do that. It's incredibly noble, but terrifying. But she's doing it of her own volition, and I would have no right to stop her. I could ask her to stop – to tell her that her life is more than just being an organ donation harvest. But if she chooses to do it, I can't kidnap her and MAKE her stop by binding her up until she sees it my way. "But what was happening to the other INNOCENT VICTIM, Tara? " Here's the main difference. Tara can choose to stop doing it any time she wants. She is in her situation ENTIRELY of her own choice, and if any day, she says 'I want to stop' the doctors would stop harvesting her organs. She's not a victim of anyone except HERSELF. Max is a victim of ALISON. If Feral had been strapped to the table against her will as her organs were ripped out of her, while she was screaming no, then there would be a similarity between what is happening to Feral and what happened to Max. There isn't, though. It's a false equivalency because the key factor of choice exists for Feral, and not for Max. "But i'm also sorry for Tara, for her destiny. " It's her choice, not her destiny. She can stop. Whenever she wants. Her own morals and wanting to help the world in a way beyond killing people are having her continue. "I will very like to imagine a world where they both can be happy, but that is not possible, because this is a world where ten thousand of lives every year are lost, when they can be saved. What will i choose, in Alison shoes.? I don't know. I know i will be terribly conflicted. Hurting someone who does not deserve it, or let someone suffer for my and my loved ones behalf?" There's a role playing game called Mage: The Ascension, in which there is a group of mages – insane mages known as the Bai Tai – who believe that the way to make the world a utopia again is to bring magic back to the world. And since, in the game's universe, Magic is only possible when you can get the consensus of humanity to agree that something is possible, they have a very simple way to make magic possible. Reduce the amount of humanity by about 7 billion people. The remaining few million would be far more likely to be convinced of anything being possible, and magic would be possible again for everyone. Why am I bringing this up? Because from the Bai Tai's perspective, what they're wanting to do is entirely logical, and even rational (despite them being completely and utterly insane). And it would actually WORK. It's horribly sociopathic and evil, though. Someone else said this before about the basic premise of libertarians – your freedom stops in the distance between your knuckles and my face. In other words, as soon as your freedom depends on personal harm to another person who has done no harm to you, you no longer have a right to your freedom. You can be a satanist, but you don't have a right to do human sacrifice. You can be a hedonist, but you do not have a right to have sex with others who can't give consent or don't give consent. You can be a glutton, but you do not have the right to kill others and eat them. You can be greedy, but you don't have a right to defraud others or steal from others. "So, i don't undestand how people can be so quick to condamn Alison for her choice to hurt Max to help Tara. From my point of view,every person who condamn Alison's action should also make sure to could never get Tara's organs." I was really good at science in school. I almost went to medical school but in my pre-med sequence I found that I got nauseous at the sight of blood, and I realized I would not be able to be a surgeon, so instead I took my science background, went into law, went to law school, took the patent bar, and became a patent attorney/intellectual property attorney, because that way I could use my medical knowledge and technical background without having to deal with stuff that made me queasy. It doesn't help as many people as being a doctor would, though. It doesnt pay as well either (and I have a LOT of debt). Should someone be able to FORCE me, violently, to go to medical school and go into a profession where I will hate it since I know I'm not emotionally capable of dealing with the acts I would have to do? It would save lives at the cost of my own personal freedom to do what I choose for my life. "So, i don't undestand how people can be so quick to condamn Alison for her choice to hurt Max to help Tara." Alison could achieve the same result by threatening the doctors if anyone operates on Feral, or tells Feral that she threatened them. "From my point of view,every person who condemn Alison's action should also make sure to could never get Tara's organs." You're ignoring the fact that Tara is doing what she is doing by CHOICE, and Max did not do what he did by choice. Not to mention Tara's recipients do not even know they're receiving her organs. palmvos same day delivery are distinctively colored envelopes, and if this is a fairly major urban area-, its possible this is some kind of courier delivery, depends on what and how those boxes work. Last I heard putting anything not mail in an actual mailbox was a federal offence, but if the stuff is locally sorted things could be different. Izo I’m sure that Patrick, being a terrorist, would definitely draw the line at mail offenses. Killing people is one thing, but violating the rules of the US postal service? That’s going too far my good sir. palmvos its lot like hes encouraging someone to force their way into someone’s house, kidnap them, force them do do something against their will, then return them home. there is no way Patrick could be doing that…. Izo I see what you did there! 🙂 palmvos Mel Brooks sues. but the first draft was written by Cleese. Izo Mel Blanc, you mean. Wasn’t he the original voice of Michigan J Frog? Unless you’re talking Spaceballs 🙂 palmvos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVZUVeMtYXc popping out and singing…. yes its spaceballs. David Gillon I’ve described a bunch of paainkillers in precisely those terms. Dihydrocodeine has no analgesic effect on me whatsoever. Izo I tend to have that reaction to demerol and hydrocodone. Takes a lot of it to actually even get me groggy from what I remember the last time I was in the hospital. Izo Exactly my point. Izo I’m happy that I’m not an engineer then. Izo I’m offended by your offense, and by your confusion! Doubly offended! palmvos I feel like there ought to be a Monty Python sketch for this thread but im not nerdy enough to know it. ::hangs head:: Yirtimd2 Well, she can become a villain here too, like Superman, and even if a few people accepted his actions, it didn’t prevented him to build his own army and to establish a totalitarian regime of his name. And worst of all – there they had chances to win battle versus him, but in this world they don’t have a chance against Alison, even if all superheroes of this world will unite against her, she can beat a crap from them without any trouble. And because this situation with unity is unreal, so it means some heroes will join her, some will be neutral and just some pathetic bunch will be her enemies, which means that their little chances to win tend to zero. And as we know bad superman from Injustice was defeated by good himself from another dimension, and because they don’t have this technologies in this world, so i think people and superheroes of this world will be fucked up if she starts her own Injustice, even if a very few people will accept her actions. Izo SPOILERS IF YOU HAVE NOT READ INJUSTICE the COMIC SERIES. “And worst of all – there they had chances to win battle versus him, but in this world they don’t have a chance against Alison, even if all superheroes of this world will unite against her, she can beat a crap from them without any trouble.” Very, very true. And troubling. “And as we know bad superman from Injustice was defeated by good himself from another dimension, and because they don’t have this technologies in this world, so i think people and superheroes of this world will be fucked up if she starts her own Injustice, even if a very few people will accept her actions.” Also true, although there were several times when others COULD have killed Superman in Injustice, and he kept getting saved by idiotic deus ex machina devices. Like when Black Canary almost killed him in revenge for his murdering Green Arrow, and right when he’s about to die, a friggin’ YELLOW LANTERN RING flies out from space to go onto his ring, digs out the kryptonite bullet from him, after which he heat visions and kills Black Canary. Most idiotic save for Superman in Injustice EVER. Totally infuriating – not that most of the comic isnt annoying with him because it’s a foregone conclusion that no matter what happens, he will NOT be defeated until the game. Then there’s the time Martian Manhunter should have been able to kill him, and another deus ex machina saves him. Or the Black Mercy plant that Batman uses. The comic grates on me so much sometimes because of poor storytelling. If it wasn’t for people like Plastic Man, Constantine, and Harley Quinn in it, I’m not sure it would be worth reading anymore 🙂 And yet I’m very much wanting to play Injustice 2, mostly because Supergirl will be in it and supposedly will be on Batman’s side, which pleases me to no end. Izo When I read that I really wondered why they didn’t just put him in a suit like Hazmat (another mutant with similar powers). Then I realized it was because of what wolverine said – if he lived and it got out that a mutant simply becoming a mutant involuntarily killed so many people without even knowing it at the time, it would be a public relation fiasco. He was killed for public relations. Very dark issue. Stephanie Quite a few people have suggested that, but that wouldn’t really make any sense for Alison to do. It would be inconsistent with her prior characterization and stated goals, for one thing. And the burger and bourbon is supposed to signify that she found a better way to save the world than Feral’s, not that she just ruined Feral’s way. Not to mention that the doctor likely wouldn’t look so happy on this page if Feral could no longer donate and there was no superior alternative. Feral may have been the target, but I think it’s extraordinarily unlikely that either Alison’s intention, or the actual outcome, was just to make Feral unable to donate organs without creating some alternative way for her to help people. Stephanie Feral did say that if Alison found a one-punch solution to the world’s problems, she’d stop donating and do Alison’s thing instead. So I wouldn’t really say this is Alison just butting in. This is something they’ve talked about. I am looking forward to finding out what the Plan was and what Feral thinks of it, though. Stephanie You always have the right, but exercising that right can be a real dick move in some situations. There’s a pretty wide gulf between “be someone’s living life-support system forever,” which is clearly an unreasonable thing to ask of anyone, vs “be inconvenienced for 4 hours to permanently save someone from a living hell.” Max may technically have had the right to refuse to “donate” those four hours, but he’s still an unmitigated jerk for trying. Mechwarrior It’s not illegal to be an unmitigated jerk. It is illegal to kidnap and assault someone, even if it’s for a “good” reason. Stephanie I’m not talking about legality. Mechwarrior So you think that ethically the ends justify the means? Stephanie I think that ethically the ends can justify the means. Mechwarrior And how do you determine that? Stephanie If the harm averted is much worse than the harm done by the means. Stephanie I think it’s unlikely that something like that would be sprung on us without foreshadowing. It’d make for a pretty awkward reveal page. Stephanie The burger and bourbon strongly implies that Feral is not currently donating organs because Alison has found a better alternative for saving the world. weedgoku She thinks she has, at least. We have been given no indication at all she has any kind of concrete plan for anything. She didn’t give Max any evidence for anything and instead opted to force him to submit. Ever since she started this other characters have been low key criticizing her lack of a plan or any kind of critical thought on the matter. She doesn’t think ahead, she barely thinks. Chances of this actually being a full blown better alternative instead of blowing up in her face like most things she does is very slim. Stephanie No indication at all? She outright said she had a plan for this. Matrix I would say that this is a likely circumstance. Allison seemed to be in utter horror as to Feral wanting to give SOO much of herself. I think that she would simply see Feral’s death as a release. To have Feral’s power reduced to the point of death and then Amped back up only to start a cycle of organ donations without anesthesia again would not be in character for Allison. srps …. crazy idea. But what happened is Max boosted a recipient of Ferals organs and bumped /them/ up to donor-able levels? that would indeed start an orgna-sharing movement. Insanenoodlyguy Allison will not limit herself to saving one person. She still, despite everything, wants to save the world. She only quit when she realized that wasn’t possible. But something will again compel her to act. The Tyrant doesn’t start with the kingdom, they conquer the village first. R Does anyone else think Feral is going to be able to apply her healing powers to other people now, presuming she was augmented? palmvos ::raises hand:: Danygalw I wonder if it applies retroactively. palmvos no, the long list takes up a whole container ship. this pallet is just the short list. note I didn’t say how small the font was…. Izo Could be worse. The pallet could have contained just the index. Giacomo Bandini You Mister, are clearly not a romantic person. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 “Alison why” “Aren’t you happy? I got you the moon. Literally. For love!” “Alison I’m very impressed but the gravitational disturbances are catastrophic we’re all gonna die” Giacomo Bandini LOL. Alright, you won, Not Romantic One. You know, i was thinking.. maybe Alison did really saved the world. Or at least, change it. Tara can donate his heart up until 10 times a day, which means 3650 hearts avaible for transplant. An impressing number, if you think that in 2014 there have been 2000 heart transplnt in the U.S. But if as we are guess his detached organs can replicate themself, and grow geometrically… one single explanted heart can generate 512 new hearts! and imagine if it continue at this rate for one year… this exponential growth. It’s litterally incalcoulable. She may have solved the problem of organ transplant FOR ALL HUMANITY. FOREVER. i think than that would justify the big ass hamburger and the bourbon. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 Sorry to bring you back down but the kinda major issue I see in that picture is that organs, fine and dandy that they are, don’t solve poverty, social inequity, illness… Giacomo Bandini Actually, they solve a very broad subsets of illness. Non only transplant but also transfusion in an emergency room. They’ll become so cheap that transplant could be extended to third world countries too: a medical treatment actually avaiblein the first world will be possible pretty much everywhere, yoo could get a new kidney even in Namibia. Not a bad exchange for a torn arm. ∫Clémens×ds 🐙 So you’re saying that once we in the real world manage to grow artificial organs (and we’re arguably close) the world will finally be paradise? pidgey On the other hand, once everyone in the world got an organ then no one would ever die, and we could start a completely different Doctor Who arc. Izo … ok that deserves an upvote. Stephanie True. I agree it’s unlikely that this is the absolute perfect solution since, as you said, that would end the comic. Stephanie Yes, but I’m not talking about the law. weedgoku Unfortunately going against the law to “do the right thing” doesn’t really justify it. Morality and ethics are far too subjective a subject to try and apply to other people, especially with force. Stephanie I think that depends on what law you’re breaking and what end you’re trying to achieve. weedgoku No, no it doesn’t. That’s not how laws work. Stephanie “How laws work” has no bearing on what I said. We’re talking about whether an illegal action can be ethically justified, not legally justified. Jac So looking forward to tomorrow. We’re gonna find out whuh happen. pidgey Do those axioms account for learning? It’s one thing to decide that it’s a “good thing” to set a house on fire because the family inside needs the insurance payout for some reason. It’s another thing entirely to decide to try it again after all the flaws in such a plan have been exposed to you. I am quite happy to accept that good intentions make a person moral, as long as we can also agree that if a person has good intentions, they must necessarily be willing to learn from mistakes, both their own and those of others. And in that case, that person’s morality is likely to be essentially indistinguishable from that of the societal norms he was raised in. M. Alan Thomas II My outline of the concept of such a system is necessarily incomplete. More fully developed versions would handle such questions; I’m just trying to point out that there are assumptions being made in any ends/means debate that aren’t true for all ethical systems. Izo You do know that none of your examples are ones in which anyone else was harmed, right? I mean… the second one MIGHT be, if right afterwards the fugitive hurts or kills or takes someone as a hostage. But until that point, it’s really not anywhere in the same league as what Alison did. Not to mention even Alison knows what she did was morally wrong. She doesn’t care though. She did it ‘because she’s stronger than him.’ Rens Max’s brief and in private humiliation, temporary fear and extremely limited pain. Of course, he’ll be stewing on this forever like the utterly self-absorbed privileged jerkass he’s been since birth who can’t conceive of the notion of anything mattering more than his precious principle of “If I can’t have what I want, to hell with all of you”, but by his own philosophy, that’s his problem, not Alison’s. Giacomo Bandini Let’s be fair, Max has his own good reason to say no. After all, if news of his power comes out to the general public, his life will change forever. I understand him, really i do. Unfortunatly, there was no choice, his happines or tara’s. Marc Forrester Historically, that’s proved to be the end result of every set of axioms human cultures have experimented with. Rens An alternate take would be that Libertarians are bullies who realized that they can con people into the myth that using economic force to bully people into doing what you want is perfectly fine while using physical force in response is horrible and barbaric. Sure, Max’ gardeners could have “chosen” to not work overtime until midnight. And they’d have gotten fired and thrown into the uncertainty of not knowing if you’ll be able to afford food next week. But that’s not Max’ problem so he doesn’t give a damn and you can’t make him. Force exists in many forms. Using an overwhelming amount of any kind of force to push someone with no real ability to resist into doing something they don’t want, with no regard for their wellbeing or wishes, is bullying regardless of which kind of force is used. It’s just that the system has legitimized certain kinds of force while denouncing others. The most common Libertarian arguments I keep coming across boil down to “paper is fine as is, the use of scissors is amoral and repellent and should be illegal, and if some people are too stupid to not play rock that’s their fault.” phantomreader42 I think the surgeons would need to take occasional breaks. Stephanie I said much worse, so no, it’s not. Mechwarrior “Much” isn’t a defined term. If I killed you to harvest your organs, how many people would I need to save for it to be acceptable for me to do so?