Issue 1CoverPage 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Page 10Page 11Page 12Page 13Page 14Page 15Page 16Page 17Page 18Page 19Page 20Page 21Page 22Break Issue 2CoverPage 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Page 10Page 11Page 12Page 13Page 14Page 15Page 16Page 17Page 18Page 19Page 20Page 21Page 22Page 23Page 24Page 25Page 26Page 27Page 28Page 29Page 30Page 31Page 32Page 33Page 34Page 35Page 36Page 37Page 38Page 39Page 40Page 41Page 42Page 43Page 44Page 45Page 46Page 47Page 48Page 49Page 50 Issue 3CoverPage 1Page 2Page 3HolidayPage 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Page 10Page 11Page 12Page 13Page 14Page 15Page 16Page 17Page 18Page 19Page 20Page 21page 22Page 23Page 24Page 25Page 26Page 27Page 28Page 29Page 30Page 31p 32Page 33Page 34Page 35Page 36Page 37Page 38Page 39Page 40Page 41Page 42Page 43Page 44Page 45Page 46Page 47Page 48Page 49Page 50Page 51Page 52Page 53Page 54Page 55Page 56Page 57Page 58Page 59Page 60Page 61Page 62Page 63Page 64Page 65Page 66Page 67Page 68Page 69Page 70Page 71Page 72Page 73Page 74Page 75Page 76Page 77Page 78 Guest ArtTuesdayWednesdayFriday Issue 4CoverPage 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Page 10Page 11Page 12Page 13Page 14Page 15Page 16Page 17Page 18Page 19Page 20Page 21Page 22Page 23Page 24Page 25Page 26Page 27Page 28Page 29Page 30Page 31Page 32Page 33Page 34Page 35Page 36Page 37Page 38Page 39Page 40Page 41Page 42Page 43Page 44Page 45Page 46Page 47Page 48Page 49Page 50Page 51Page 52 Issue 5CoverPage 1Page 2NewspaperPage 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Page 10Page 11Page 12Page 13Page 14Page 15Page 16Page 17Page 18Page 19Page 20Page 21Page 22Page 23Page 24Page 25Page 26Page 27Page 28Page 29Page 30Page 31Page 32Page 33Page 34Page 35Page 36Page 37Page 38Page 39Page 40Page 41Page 42Page 43Page 44Page 45Page 46Page 47Page 48Page 49Page 50Page 51Page 52Page 53Page 54Page 55Page 56Page 57Page 58Page 59Page 60HiatusPage 61Page 62Page 63Page 64Page 65Page 66Page 67Page 68Page 69Page 70Page 71Page 72Page 73Page 74Page 75Page 76Page 77Page 78Page 79Page 80Page 81Page 82Page 83Page 84Page 85Page 86Page 87Page 88Page 89Page 90Page 91Page 92Page 93Page 94Page 95Page 96Page 97Page 98Page 99Page 100Page 101Page 102Page 103Page 104Page 105Page 106Page 107Page 108Page 109Page 110Page 111Page 112Page 113Page 114Page 115Page 116Page 117Page 118Page 119Page 120Page 121Page 122Page 123Page 124Page 125Page 126Page 127Page 128Page 129Page 130Page 131Page 132Page 133Page 134Page 135Page 136Page 137Page 138Page 139Page 140Page 141Page 142Page 143Page 144Page 145Page 146Page 147Page 148Page 149Page 150Page 151Page 152Page 153Page 154Page 155Page 156Page 157Page 158Page 159Page 160Page 161Page 162Page 163Page 164Page 165Page 166Page 167 Issue 6CoverPage 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Page 10Page 11Page 12Page 13Page 14Page 15Page 16Page 17Page 18Page 19Page 20Page 21Page 22Page 23Page 24Page 25Page 26Page 27Page 28Page 29Page 30Page 31Page 32Page 33Page 34Page 35Page 36Page 37Page 38Page 39Page 40Page 41Page 42Page 43Page 44Page 45Page 46Page 47Page 48Page 49Page 50Page 51Page 52Page 53Page 54Page 55Page 56Page 57Page 58Page 59Page 60Page 61Page 62Page 63Page 64Page 65Page 66Page 67Page 68Page 69Page 70Page 71Page 72Page 73Page 74Page 75Page 76Page 77Page 78Page 79Page 80Page 81Page 82Page 83Page 84Page 85Page 86Page 87Page 88Page 89Page 90Page 91Page 92Page 93Page 94Page 95Page 96Page 97Page 98Page 99Page 100Page 101Page 102Page 103Page 104Page 105Page 106Page 107Page 108Page 109Page 110Page 111Page 112Page 113Page 114Page 115Page 116Page 117Page 118Page 119Page 120Page 121Page 122Page 123Page 124Page 125Page 126Page 127Page 128Page 129Page 130Page 131Page 132Page 133Page 134Page 135Page 136Page 137Page 138Page 139Page 140Page 141Page 142Page 143Page 144Page 145 Bonus Content1234 Issue 7CoverPage 1Page 2Page 3Page 4Page 5Page 6Page 7Page 8Page 9Page 10Page 11Page 12Page 13Page 14Page 15Page 16Page 17Page 18Page 19Page 20Page 21Page 22Page 23Page 24Page 25Page 26Page 27Page 28Page 29Page 30Page 31Page 32Page 33Page 34Page 35Page 36Page 37Page 38Page 39Page 40Page 41Page 42Page 43Page 44Page 45Page 46Page 47Page 48Page 49Page 50Page 51Page 52Page 53Page 54Page 55Page 56Page 57Page 58Page 59Page 60Page 61Page 62Page 63Page 64Page 65Page 66Page 67Page 68Page 69Page 70Page 71Page 72Page 73Page 74Page 75Page 76Page 77Page 78Page 79Page 80Page 81Page 82Page 83Page 84Page 85Page 86Page 87Page 88Page 89Page 90Page 91Page 92Page 93Page 94Page 95Page 96Page 97Page 98Page 99Page 100Page 101Page 102Page 103Page 104Page 105Page 106Page 107Page 108Page 109Page 110Page 111Page 112Break Show Comments Ethan Parker D’awwww….. Jubal DiGriz Seconded. Thomas Tyrrell This is a bit too nice for me. I miss the pointier arcs with the harder edges, and the long conversations about the philosophy of morals. masterofbones WHAT ABOUT THE DUCK? Thomas Tyrrell God, I miss the duck. AdamBombTV He was so wise, and yet so fowl. Lisa Izo I hate you with the power of a thousand exploding suns for that pun. Also you are awesome for that pun. Lisa Izo Alison is the duck. Weatherheight Deep. Duck as metaphor. Duck of Justice… Garibaldi’s Poster… Tales… Tales… Duckburg… ::stares into space as the associations of Duckness begin spinning out of control:: Lisa Izo It’s so deep that the Mariana Trench is a puddle in comparison. And at the bottom of that Trench is a duck. Zorae42 Let’s get dangerous Arkone Axon …Which suddenly moves me to wonder: What would Alison do to Uncle Scrooge? Would he have to worry about more dangerous adversaries than the Beagle Boys coming after him and his money bin? Lisa Izo She’d threaten to cook him because he isn’t giving his money to the poor. AdamBombTV Gotta have the fluff to make the plunge of the knife hurt more. Rando Yeah, this really drives in further the author insert theory. Jshadow Wait what? That’s it? She just forgot?? She could’ve just said “I know you’ve done good by me, but you didn’t really do anything to contribute on creation of what we were celebrating tonight.” Sean Duncan Or maybe “I should thank the people who inspired me by being in excruciating pain for the good of others, are former team-mates and the woman who mentored me, the things you did are basic human decency” Jshadow Yeah even that. Lysiuj Providing direct emotional support and physical aid (i.e. making food and drink for her) is not “basic human decency”, it’s not something a rando off the street would do for no reason. It’s something someone would regularly do to support someone they’re committed to. And usually the person doing that is a friend or family member, or a romantic partner, and does it continuously, and even more so if their loved one could use the help while working on something demanding. And most people want to show their thanks for support of that kind, in one way or another. And I’m still confused why “former team-mates” neccessarily deserve speech mentions, but “current boyfriend” neccesarily doesn’t. Arkone Axon …That statement is actually rather frightening, given the context of the character whose mouth you’re putting words into. Last chapter, Alison initiated a violent assault and kidnapping before informing her victim that she expected him to engage in a medical procedure against his will, putting himself at risk of exposing his secret to the world (and thus to an entire host of fanatics just as ready to force him to advance their goals as she was). And making it clear she was ready to torture and possibly murder him, her self-rationalization for her actions snarling at him for even thinking about denying her (exact quote) “fucking BASE-LEVEL, DECENT, NO-BRAINER request.” It’s bad enough she did so under relatively extreme conditions. But you just suggested that she should adopt such an attitude and behavior under normal, every day conditions. “No I’m not going to thank you for cooking for me or doing other basic, decent, no-brainer acts on my behalf. Now get back to work or I’ll use violence again.” That is… frightening. Sean Duncan Or you know, she most likely thanked him when he did it like an normal person and didn’t mention it on stage. If my partner won an award and didn’t think me for the things he has described I would go “huh, maybe they are prioritising people who helped them in the field, after all I know they appreciate me because they’ve said” instead of “Why didn’t I get a thank you” which seams kinda crass and Nice guyish in a way that honestly makes me dislike Clevin in a visceral way. Arkone Axon Except that a lot of other people on this comments page disagree – and those people are in actual working relationships. I.e. the “normal persons” you speak of. “Normal persons” who have been in the exact situation Alison was in, or the situation that Clevin was in, and speak from experience. Again: the people who have actually been in relationships and made them work are in agreement that Alison should have thanked him publicy, that Clevin was right in privately expressing his unhappiness, and that Alison was correct in acknowledging the unhappiness of the person who was so devoted to her own happiness. In other words, you’re sounding like a “martial arts expert” whose knowledge comes from watching videos about ninja, whereas we’re more like the folks who have actually been in a fight or two. AdamBombTV But that would have been a super bitchy thing to say Jshadow Is she already on the account that she FORGOT about him? AdamBombTV You can forget someone in a thank you speech and apologise to them when you remember later, that’s fine. But telling someone that their contributions don’t matter, especially when you’re in a new relationship with that person, especially especially when said person is upset that you missed them out of being thanked, that’s just straight up rude, mean, and a bit callous. Jshadow So how did she forget about him in the 1st place when they’re romantically involved? Although judging by this page is seems like he’s just a “temp” for Ali until she can get something more serious. This is a lose-lose situation no matter how you look at it. Lysiuj This is literally the page where she tells him she loves him, how do you get ‘temp’ from that? Jshadow “I love… your?” Why would she stummble in the 1st place on 3 simple words? Lysiuj Because sometimes people hesitate when saying “I love you” for the first time, beacause they know that’s a big deal and they’re not sure if they want to take that step forward. But the fact that she started to say it is just as indicative as her hesitation, if not more so. It’s not something you blurt out without thinking about it unless there’s truth to it. (And maybe part of the reason why people hesitate to say “I love you” is because they’ve gotten used to being judged and mocked when they’re honest about their feelings? You know, like the lovely demonstration of such that we got in the last page’s comments?) Rando Yes, because everyone is always 100% honest and sincere when they state something. No one ever attempts to emotionally manipulate anyone else, then claim “They were just being honest!”. We should clearly always ignore every cue that is present that states otherwise, and just give them the benefit of the doubt. Because no one ever has bad intentions. Lysiuj You know what? You keep saying “emotional manipulation”, but you were the one a few weeks ago who was saying that real life people, commenters on this comic, were being fucking “””””””emotionally manipulative””””””” just for saying that they find something offensive or hurtful. Clearly to you any kind of honesty is just evil. Or is that just when other people are honest, not you? So I really don’t care what your opinion is, about emotional manipulation or anything else. Rando Gasp, almost like they were being. By trying to shut people up for disagreeing with them, by claiming offense. Rather than coming up with a coherent argument to sway people to their side, they claim moral outrage. Jshadow I’m sorry, but all of that is still negated by the fact that she claims she forgot to mention him. If she really did love him she would mention him… but she didn’t and he had to go spill all of that to her. As I sad this is a lose-lose situation. She’s bad because she forgot he existed and she’s bad if she said he hasn’t done anything/didn’t know long enough to be mentioned. Lysiuj Fair enough. I still disagree – I think she forgot because she didn’t think of it, cause he was removed enough from direct connection to Valkyrie that it didn’t occur to her; and maybe this conversation is exactly what pushed her feelings forward to love. But I can see where you’re coming from. palmvos everything you have said is true as far as it goes. however, as someone who is still married largely because divorce is too expensive, a critical part of any relationship is forgiveness. if you cannot forgive your partner, that hurt takes root in you and grows into a bitter cancer that destroys everything you see. Lance Allen Bullshit. I forgot to thank my *wife* at my promotion ceremony, because I was nervous. She was standing right there. She pinned the rank on. At no point had I any occasion to forget her or her contributions, but I still did not remember to thank her in my speech. Mistakes happen. Sometimes, they don’t have any sort of deeper meaning, other than someone goofed. Forgetting someone in a speech is not a sign that you don’t love them, especially if you blurt it out shortly after, even if you try to redact it in the same moment, which is also super common. My first girlfriend blurted it out; I pretended I hadn’t heard her, she pretended she hadn’t said anything. A similar thing happened with my ex-wife, only it involved a Taco Bell sauce packet. Yes, bad things are probably going to happen; This comic wouldn’t be nearly as interesting if things didn’t. But there’s no reason, here or elsewhere, to believe that Alison isn’t invested in this relationship, and isn’t honestly in love with Clevin. Tylikcat There have been a number of pretty high profile examples of people being left out of Oscar thank you speeches (like, I know this, and I don’t even watch the Oscars.) Speeches given by actors, who are supposed to be good at that sort of thing. JeffH This! I’ve been on both sides of “forgetting acknowledgment in a speech,” and it was never intentional. Humans make mistakes and most of us are not experienced public speakers. Good relationships let you talk through the mistakes and get past them. Thechynd I feel like she might have been about to say something like “I love your honesty” or “I love your supportiveness” and then realised that she was attracted to the qualities her previous boyfriends were lacking but became worried that was all there was to the relationship. Then she quickly buries those feelings as she tries to just focus on being happy rather than sabotaging herself by overthinking things. Rando Except she actually doesn’t tell him that she loves him. Incendax She’s probably rushing into it, and just wants to feel normal. This entire relationship is founded upon her self loathing about Max. Lysiuj Maybe about the first point. I disagree about the second, though that is an interesting idea I hadn’t thought about before. Bauke That would be insanely cruel, even if it had been true. That’s not how you treat people that you’re close to. masterofbones She thanked other people for emotional support. Why wouldn’t she thank her boyfriend? masterofbones It might just be the lower level of detail, but in the last panel Clevin has a bit of “resting evil face” Rando Its the way his eyebrows and glasses have arched, along with the smirk. Callinectes I have resting evil face too. The struggle is real, but so is the evil. David Gillon “I love yo – your.” Someone pulled out of committing herself at the last moment. Dean “I love…Europe! That common market, it’s really my kind of thing!” Debbie Jackson *Sad, wistful frown in the direction of the a50 negotiations* Walter “I love yo…femisms. Euphemisms. Like that one.” skh From personal experience, it’s also being terrified that the other person isn’t ready to hear that/hasn’t yet decided they feel as strongly as you do. Lisa Izo I really doubt that Alison was worried that the guy who has been wanting to go out with her forever and went yahoo the first time she said okay was NOT feeling as strongly about being in love with her. Weatherheight It’s funny how people react to that phrase. Dated a woman for two years off and on (her choice, not mine), had known her for five years, had told her how much I cared about her, but when I used that phrase, “I love you”… Holy frijoles, Batman, did she freak out. We broke up in two months as all the stuff she’d not been showing me bubbled to the surface and left her awash. When the end came, I wasn’t ready for it but she sure was (and frankly, I felt she was right on some issues and couldn’t see how we could work them out until she worked out part of them in her own head). First time I said it to another woman, her response was, “love you too, Babe? Where do you wanna go for dinner?” Funny old world… Lisa Izo I’m thinking you may have dodged a bullet with the first person if she freaked out after you saying ‘I love you’ after two years of on-and-off dating. I’m probably closer to the second woman. It’s just words (nice words to hear, but words) – actions and context of the words used tend to have more of an impact on me. 🙂 Good points made though – but I still think that if I was a betting woman, I’d wager on the side of ‘she shouldn’t worry about how Klevin (or Clevin – I remember it as originally Klevin but everyone says Clevin so … peer pressure) was going to react to her saying ‘I love you.’ I don’t think him running for the hills was an option from those three words. More likely running for the hills would be an option if she is ever honest with him about what she did with Max. Weatherheight I tend to agree with you on the first woman – but she’s the only woman with whom I’ve ever been able to work in a kitchen as a team. It’s a little thing, but it’s strangely important t me…). Knew she had damage going into it, but… well, I’m damaged too. 😀 I am waiting with ‘bated breath for that reveal. Where I sit, that scale is too well balanced to call just now. skh Yeah, Alison has the benefit of being fictional and having her story scripted to meet an end. Forgot about that. You’re probably right in that regard, but even knowing in your heart-of-hearts, you can still be scared as shit to break the bubble. As @[email protected]:disqus says below, it’s a ‘funny old world’… I was in the shoes of the woman he refers to once or twice. Lisa Izo I guess. I’ve never really freaked out from a guy saying ‘I love you’ personally, although if it’s said too soon I suppose it could be awkward. It seems like, in universe, some time has progressed with their relationship, even if we haven’t actually seen that progression. Stephanie Insecurity doesn’t tend to be rational. Lisa Izo True…. Weatherheight “I love yo.. yogurt.” “I love yo… yo-yos.” “I love yo… Yoo-Hoo.” Lisa Izo “I love Yoo-Hoo too! Kiss me you mad fool!” Alternatively: “You love yo-yos?! A yo-yo killed my father! Get away from me you freak!” Alternatively to the alternatively: “I’m indifferent about yogurt – I’m lactose intolerant. Maybe after I take some lactase pills.” Lysiuj Talking honestly and directly about your feelings is not emotional manipulation. It is the basis of a healthy relationship. Rando No, but the way you talk about your feelings is. The way he did it was still manipulative. Zac Caslar You want this SO badly, and it’s just not that way. GL with them tides, Knute. Lysiuj [Copied from downpage] You know what? You keep saying “emotional manipulation”, but you were the one a few weeks ago who was saying that real life people, commenters on this comic, were being fucking “””””””emotionally manipulative””””””” just for saying that they find something offensive or hurtful. Clearly to you any kind of honesty is just evil. Or is that just when other people are honest, not you? So I really don’t care what your opinion is, about emotional manipulation or anything else. Rando [Also copied from down page] Gasp, almost like they were being. By trying to shut people up for disagreeing with them, by claiming offense. Rather than coming up with a coherent argument to sway people to their side, they claim moral outrage. Lheticus Videre I think you’re defining emotional manipulation too broadly here. APPEAL to emotion, which is what it is when someone objects to something on the grounds of how it makes them feel, while logically fallacious and invalid, is not the same as emotional MANIPULATION. Emotional manipulation implies that the person doing the manipulating doesn’t actually feel that way, but is more making like they are in order to manipulate others. If someone feels a certain way, if they ACTUALLY do, they can’t help feeling how they feel. Rando Appeal to emotion: “Appeal to emotion or argumentum ad passiones is a logical fallacy characterized by the manipulation of the recipient’s emotions in order to win an argument, especially in the absence of factual evidence.” Ian Osmond It’s a logical fallacy, but not a rhetorical fallacy. Because logic is only one-third of rhetoric. Yes, appeal to emotion is a logical fallacy. But it is equally true that appeal to logic is an emotional fallacy. According to Aristotle, there are three primary avenues of persuasion: ethos, pathos, and logos. Appeal to authority, appeal to emotion, and appeal to logic. And all of them are valid. If I tell you that the number of doctors who think anti-vaxxers have a point is statistically indistinguishable from zero, or climate scientists who deny climate change, or structural engineers who think that 9/11 was a demolition — that’s an appeal to authority, and is therefore a logical fallacy, but a valid argument. Or if I am an attorney, and I bring in an outside expert to testify about DNA or ballistics, or accounting — again, appeal to authority, and valid. Ethos and pathos are legitimate forms of argument. Logic is only one-third of the things you have to do to convince people of things. Rando Also, as the subject in question was being used to shut down an argument without actually providing any counter points, not to simply appeal to their humanity. It was manipulation. Ian Osmond You’re asking people to explain their emotions logically. That’s a category error. Hiram Eh, emotions still have a basis in logic. Which could be part of your point, I suppose – nothing exists in isolation. I get where Rando is coming from, and I do think it would be interesting if Clevin was used to explore emotionally manipulative relationships given what Valkyrie is trying to do. I also get where you’re coming from and it would be fine if it was a just a somewhat self-indulgent emotional discharge handled ably. But here’s the thing – it isn’t worth arguing over. Past a certain point everyone’s just second-guessing Clevin’s motives. That said, it IS adorable that they’re sharing a tub of ice-cream. Ian Osmond Do they, though? Emotions usually have a connection to an outside stimulus, but even that connection is often less direct than you would think. And the stimulus, from an emotional point of view, exists outside the reason for the stimulus. If you push me out of the way of an oncoming bus, I’m going to feel angry that you pushed me. I will very shortly — within a second or two — have an emotional reaction to the additional stimulus of having nearly died, and that you saved me, and I will feel gratitude at an intensity that will entirely wipe away the anger, but that first reaction of anger will exist, because the emotion comes before understanding the reason for the emotion. The emotion exists outside of logic. Our reactions are a mix of our emotions and our logic, and it’s reasonable to censure someone for letting their emotions get the best of them. But the emotions themselves are not logical. But they’re real, and have to be dealt with. We use our logic to figure out less destructive ways of dealing with our emotions. But that happens later. Hiram You’re talking about visceral reactions based on incomplete information, but there’s still a reason and those emotions can be explained. Here, change this part of your sentence to anything else. ” You’re asking people to explain cupcakes logically. That’s a category error. ” You see why that seems silly? It’s not ‘cupcakes exist outside logic’ but ‘cupcakes can be subject to explanation’ or ‘you can create cupcakes through a logical process’ or even ‘sometimes you just have a great big mess of flower and water’. Emotional appeals tend to have their own basis in logic too. They only become fallacies when the emotional element is used to distract from or circumvent an argument. Ian Osmond Okay, I think I see your point. The study of emotions is psychology, and, indeed, psychologists used to be called, and still occasionally are called, analysts. And, yes, you can work out root causes of emotions, and understanding them can often be useful. I’d say that that is exactly what Clevin did in the previous comic — he payed attention to his emotions, and analyzed them using psychology, and therefore logic, and shared his insights so that he and Alison could deal with it together. So, yeah. Maybe it’s not that emotions have nothing to do with logic. Maybe it’s more that, to the extent that they DO have something to do with one another, Clevin already did it. Hiram Woo! Mutual understanding! Conceptual beer and pretzels for all! ZBass I’m curious, how would you have talked about it if you were Clevin? Incendax I wouldn’t have talked about it. I would have gotten over it, then waited to see if this was a one time fluke or an ongoing problem. It’s the ongoing problems that need to be talked out, not every random one-off emotion. Zorae42 He tried to do that. It’s just when he mentioned doing more boyfriend support stuff and she reacted positively in private he was reminded how she didn’t thank him earlier and some of his feelings slipped into his voice. And it’s a good thing they talked about it. That little sadness could fester into thoughts that maybe she doesn’t care about him or thinks he’s not doing enough to be supportive or that he’s not good enough for her or that his pasta sucks! It’s better to address it now before things get out of hand and while it’s still relevant to Alison and not a big deal to Clevin. ZBass I agree that waiting for a bit of distance can be helpful. As in waiting to see if it bothered Clevin the next day would be reasonable. But once Al has noticed he’s in a off mood, the options are limited. Especially once she encourages him to share, the stall of ‘I’m probably being silly, if it still bothers me tomorrow we’ll talk about it’ would probably send her into worrying what’s going on. Alternatively he could try to hide the mood, but clearly that’s not worked so far. Is there another way your saw it playing out? Incendax Probably something along the lines of “I’m not sure. Everyone was being so cool, but I got myself into a funk somehow. Let me think about it. Hey, would you like to come over and watch a movie?” ZBass Yeah, if I was Al this’d immediately kill my post-event buzz, and leave me spending the night worrying about what’s bothering you. With both paths Clevin’s going to impact each others mood. I guess it partly depends on how you’re defining ’emotionally manipulative’. To me Clevin’s not being manipulative, but that’s only according to my own internal definition*, so what’s yours? *If you’re interested, I’d say emotional manipulation is deliberately trying to invoke a specific reaction in the other person, often something negative like guilt/fear/jealousy/anger. Incendax Clevin left the bread crumb trail for her to follow, so he’s certainly responsible for her pushing the issue with him. The moment he started down that path, he was doomed to somebody getting their feelings hurt. I wouldn’t have even left the bread crumb trail (not that I do bread crumbs) until at least a day between the emotional event so I could get a better grasp on my thoughts and feelings. ZBass I’d guess that as well as anyone might think they’re hiding these kind of pained emotions, those closest to us can detect the shift in mood. So breadcrumbs are inevitable whether we want to leave them or not. Rando Yeah, but how often does someone say things like; “I’m okay…” When they aren’t actually trying to lead the conversation in a specific direction? Have you ever actually trailed off in a sentence like that? All he had to say, was that he was tired from the party. Then he could have worked out his issues on his own. Serena So, basically it would’ve been more honest and less emotionally manipulative to more effectively lie to her? ZBass I dunno, I’ve definitely come away from drinks with friends aware that they were trying to hide that somethings bothering them. Anyway, I think that a bit like ‘beauty’s in the eye of the beholder’, this is a bit of an equivalent ‘intent is in the ear of the beholder’. Clevin’s behaviour seemed completely fine to me, but I tend to be highly trusting/optimistic in these kind of things. That’s not to say how you hear it is wrong, it’s just not a mindset I’d choose to share. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I’ve appreciated hearing a contrasting view. Kevin B. Why the heck would he need to work out his issues on his own? Weatherheight Actually, if I say “I’m okay…”, that’s my phrase for either “I’m still working out how feel so leave me alone for a bit while I figure that out” or “I’m doing fine, thanks”. Most of my circle of friends use it in that same way. I will concede my circle may be quite atypical. Rando Well, he could have not tried to drive a wedge between her and her other friends. Telling her that her other friends contributions weren’t as important as his is a pretty disgusting thing to do. Insatiable Booksluts “Telling her that her other friends contributions weren’t as important as his is a pretty disgusting thing to do.” Scuse, where did he say “your friends’ contributions were not as important as mine”? He said (paraphrasing a tad so I don’t have to click back) that he thought they had just generally supported her in the same way that he did, but admitted that he didn’t know if they made more contributions. If you’re going to accuse someone of being emotionally manipulative, get your facts right first. I grew up in a highly emotionally manipulative family and I get zero whiffs of attempts to manipulate her here. I believe you’re reading far more into it than what is actually there, especially as evidenced by your misinterpretation and outright mis-remembering of things that he actually said. He didn’t want to drive a wedge between her and her friends. He did nothing at all to precipitate or even suggest that he was trying to get her not to be proud of them, or thankful for them, or friends with them. Zorae42 What wedge? He literally acknowledged how important they were to her and that they had done more for her than him. He was just saying that, as far as he knows, they didn’t do much to help with Valkyrie directly. He wasn’t saying they didn’t deserve a thanks but he did; he was trying to justify why he felt sad to her and to himself. And honestly, Brad telling her not to recruit people from his support group and Pint-sized putting together a super hero group aren’t as important as keeping her well fed and awake and being there for her when the work got super hard. Insatiable Booksluts Went back to re-read.. he literally says “I know they’ve done more for you than I have”. Which is the opposite of saying “My contributions are more important.” Lawl. Debbie Jackson Honestly, this sounds and feels an awful lot more manipulative than Clevin ever did by actually coming clean. Both parties *know* there’s something more, unstated, under the surface.. but are now putting on a vague pretense of calm and mutually ignoring the problem. The only way “it’s nothing” works properly is when you actively decide that it no longer matters – and manage to successfully discard the emotional impulse – prior to saying so. If you can’t do so, then it isn’t nothing. Nightsbridge So, lying? Incendax Civilization is built upon small considerate lies. 😛 Nightsbridge A relationship that can’t survive these truths was never going to survive anyway. Incendax It usually depends on the frequency. Nightsbridge A relationship that can’t survive these truths was never going to survive anyway. Ptorq I wouldn’t have talked about it. I would have fretted over it and let it stew up into a big pot of resentment until I got angry enough to yell at Alison and she left me (if I was lucky) or punched me into next week (if I wasn’t). Because that’s how “real men” normally deal with feelings. I’d actually be pretty impressed with Clevin for being so open and honest about it so quickly if he were a real guy rather than a character in a story. On a completely unrelated note I have never really gotten the “I love you” reluctance thing (and ESPECIALLY the variant where you try to pass it off as something else: “I love yo… yos. I really love yo-yos. Do you like yo-yos too?”). I mean, once you know it’s true, anyway, and if you find yourself saying it involuntarily, you KNOW it’s true. That was really the one part of the arc (other than Clevin so adroitly identifying and discussing the source of the winter of his discontent) that felt “fictional” to me. It’s a massive trope in TV shows and movies, but it always feels kind of fake and forced to me there, too. Debbie Jackson Well, take this from me, as someone who accidentally blurted out “I mean, I love you, just-” at my five-month partner in a *church service with my parents* and then ran headlong out of the door; the reluctance and panic around those words is very much a thing. You get a moment of gut-dropping realisation which usually brings you up short or creates some sort of panic. Al just did the former – she realised halfway through the sentence that she hadn’t actually decided if she was ready to say it quite yet, and tried to vaguely backpedal. ukulady7 That’s called building resentment. Would you like to find out your partner had an ongoing list of everything that you did that hurt them? People can only fix things they’re aware are problems. Shjade Incendax, here’s the thing: not talking about is more likely to make it ongoing, since if you don’t let anyone know an action hurt you, and it isn’t an obviously hurtful activity, it’s possible no one will ever know you were hurt. So why would they worry about repeating it? Why let it turn into a larger, ongoing thing when you could instead nip it in the bud early, when anyone involved is less likely to feel so bad about how long they’ve been doing X to get defensive about being told X has been hurting you all that time? Incendax Talking about every little thing usually makes things worse in the long run, not better. You usually end up overextending your partner on an emotionally supportive level, and causing them to start building up resentment. It’s usually much better to wait a day or two and see if you still have strong feelings about something, or wait and see if the ‘offense’ is something that is going to repeat itself over time. Shjade Maybe you should wait a day or two to see if Clevin talking about little things that make him feel bad is a one time fluke or an ongoing problem before you decide you need to talk about it. Incendax Hahahaha. Good advice! Rando This is also really not Al’s problem, this isn’t something she needs to course correct on. They have not been together long enough, nor did he do enough to necessitate her thanks at a public function for an event he was not involved with. It especially shouldn’t have been brought up immediately after her event. If she wasn’t thanking him for bringing her the boiled water at the time he did it, that is another thing entirely that he could have actually brought up. Arkone Axon Actually, it kinda IS her problem. They’re in a romantic relationship. Relationships – ALL relationships, professional and personal, romantic and platonic – are built on mutual consideration. The traditional definition of a “gentleman” is “one who takes care to ensure that others are at least as comfortable as they are.” (Which is why a butler is also called a “gentleman’s gentleman.” And also why Robert Heinlein once had a character praise his wife, “Lady, you’re a gentleman!”) If he were an unpaid intern working for Valkyrie and had expressed unhappiness at not being thanked for his efforts, it would have still been incumbent upon her to apologize and redress the grievances of a subordinate. If he were a casual friend who had expressed unhappiness, it would still have been incumbent upon her to apologize and redress the grievances of a friend. But in this case it’s the guy who boiled a lot of pasta – or, in less self-deprecating terms, the guy who made certain she and the others wouldn’t go hungry while they was focused on all the work involved in putting Valkyrie together. As well as providing emotional support and encouragement. And giving her something pleasant to distract her from the stormclouds looming on the horizon as a result of her misdeeds. Simply put: when your romantic partner, be it a new romance or a long term romance, is unhappy, IT IS YOUR PROBLEM. Debbie Jackson Problem is, this isn’t a repeatable situation. It’s the grand opening of Al’s massive charitable initiative. Clevin wasn’t mentioned this time around for his support and emotional contribution and will never have another chance to be mentioned. Suddenly realising that and becoming quiet and reflective about it is perfectly understandable. And since Allison noticed, I’d say that it’s very good of him to have come clean and explained himself, rather than worried her unnecessarily by sulking without context. That would have damaged the night for far longer, and would have damaged their relationship as well since he’d never have received the support or acknowledgement that he has above. If he had chosen to conceal his feelings and they didn’t easily dissipate afterward? Then if Allison, unaware that he’s starting to feel this way, ever overlooked him again, Clevin would appear to have been concealing resentment by bringing it up considerably later – even if that wasn’t the case. Imagine being in Al’s situation three months down the line when she *finally* discovers he’s been dispirited and miserable ever since that evening and feels like she takes him for granted… she’d be torn between deep guilt and utter frustration that he’d never said anything to let her know before! It would be a major relationship-shaking moment of strife. As it is, it’s one minute of uncertainty, easily handled. Incendax Why wait three months? Just a day or two is usually enough to distance yourself from the immediate impulse, and get a better grasp on your thoughts and feelings. I can’t count the number of times a sudden emotional response turned out to not be a problem after a day or two. And not just something that gets carried around and bottled up, but genuinely and completely not an issue any more. And if you still feel that way after a day or two, then you can bring it up. Rando I already mentioned this on the previous comic a couple of times, basically; Cut out 95% of the dialog from the final panel. There is absolutely zero need for him to try and cut down the contributions of her other friends, or to go into such a long diatribe about his accomplishments. And breaking the 4th wall, I would have had him doing something more substantial than boiling water for her. All he had to say was; “I am not mad. I am just a little sad I didn’t get a mention for supporting you like your other friends.” The end. Debbie Jackson You’re not wrong there. But the point, I think, was to show that he hadn’t planned out what he was going to say, was emotional, and rambling. Many people – myself included – are far more long-winded when we’re tired, stressed, or underprepared. Arkone Axon Um… uh… um… uh…er… Those monosyllables. Those are verbal utterances made by people who are attempting to stall for time while they formulate their thoughts. Because what they have to say is not carefully rehearsed. Along with “I don’t know” and “maybe.” He expressed himself as best he could. She treated him with… to be honest, more respect and empathy than I would have expected of her (this is actually an improvement on her part; in the past she would have self righteously defended herself rather than acknowledge he had a point). She was not made to feel guilty for the purposes of manipulating her into doing something; he expressed his feelings, she expressed her remorse for making him feel that way, they moved on to a mutual pleasant time in each other’s company. Of course it is possible that literally everything he’s said was part of some carefully calculated ploy to “neg” the most powerful biodynamic on the planet into doing his bidding (rather on a par with smuggling liquid nitroglycerine in terms of “dangerous, risky, and impractical schemes”). But… if you’re going to suspect everything your romantic partner does and treat them as guilty-until-proven-otherwise in every instance, rather than give them the benefit of the doubt… you’re not going to have a romantic partner for very long. Some guy Being Clevin, the eternal dream. Bauke You really have an issue with this, don’t you? I think Ali handled it like she should have, and so did Clevin. They are two adults with feelings, and baggage. And they handled it the best they could. I see no manipulation here in any way. Should Clevin maybe have said something a little earlier? I don’t think so, otherwise he would have had to do it in front of her friends, with added potential for drama. Mechwarrior I think Rando has an issue with emotions. Weatherheight I didn’t read it that way at all, and I’ve got a degree in psychology, 300+ hours in counseling training, and hundreds of hours in counseling experience. What we object to tells others a lot about us. Rando Ah, the old projection gambit. It’s a bold strategy Cotton, lets see if it pays off for ’em. So with your vast experience, you really don’t find it at all manipulative, that he was telling her that her other friends contributions weren’t as important as his? Didn’t set off any red flags for you? Insatiable Booksluts It’s not a red flag because he literally did not indicate that his contributions were more important. Your reading comprehension needs some work. Rando It’s funny you say that when… “And I know they’ve done more for you than I have…” And here is the important bit, since you apparently missed it. “…but maybe not as far as Valkyrie is concerned?” Wow, its like he just said their contributions weren’t as important. Serena Okay, still, you are pretending there are only two options: Her friends’ contributions are MORE than his, or her friends’ contributions are LESS than his. You’re ignoring the “are in the same general area, essentially equivalent or mostly equal” as an option. Whether willfully or not, at this point it’s kind of ridiculous. Given he says, “I know they’ve done more for you than I have…” And THEN: “…but maybe not [more than me] as far as Valkyrie is concerned?” The implied elliptical phrase still leaves open – and in the context of his previous line about the admitted great value of her friends’ contributions, practically confirms as the best possible reading – that he sees their contributions NOT AS MUCH MORE than his, but rather ABOUT THE SAME as his, CONCERNING VALKYRIE in particular. I get it. You don’t like the guy. You maybe don’t like the idea of guys being open and honest and emotionally vulnerable in this way. Maybe you don’t like the idea of ANYONE being open and honest and emotionally vulnerable in this way. Maybe you feel it’s a moral failing. Maybe you lost a significant (or hopeful-significant) other to another person who behaved in this way, and you feel it must mean anyone who does this is a manipulative bag of trash like the one that wronged you. I’m just hypothesizing a bunch of possible reasons that might be why you would so insistently read into the text as a only possible interpretation something that mathematically and logically is NOT the only possible interpretation. I don’t have the tech background to post the correct characters to this comment, but life DOES exist of more than > [greater than] and < [less than]. There's also = [equals], [congruent], [similar], [greater than or equal to], [less than or equal to], and probably a whole host of other comparative options that just aren't widely used in my particular field of work. "Maybe they're not more helpful than me with Valkyrie" does NECESSITATE "your friends are a bunch of bums and I'm a lot better, and did a lot better, and what were you thinking?" I do apologize for feeling a bit repetitive here; I'm just trying desperately to figure out how to open your eyes to this one potential flaw in your seemingly "iron clad" argument, since you seem to argue this particular point so frequently as if it were a given. And you (I think it was you, anyway. May be someone else) did say you prefer people to argue your facts, etc. than bother to share their emotions Serena Typo: “Maybe they’re not more helpful than me with Valkyrie” does NOT necessitate “your friends are a bunch of bums and I’m a lot better, and did a lot better, and what were you thinking?” Lepidolite Mica “And I know they’ve done more for you than I have…” Reading comprehension training would do you good. Rando Try reading the words immediately after those. You know, the ones you purposefully excluded because they disproved the point you were trying to make. Lepidolite Mica Funny, I thought I excluded them because I felt they went on too long. “And I know they’ve done more for you than I have, but maybe not as far as Valkyrie is concerned? Or maybe, I don’t know…” He’s still uncertain even in that case. At no point did he, as you said, “[tell] her that her other friends contributions weren’t as important as his”. He outright did the opposite in the first sentence I quoted, and even in the sentences after he still expressed uncertainty about the subject. You’re grasping at straws here. Ezra Ah, the old repetition technique to drown them out. It’s a bold strategy Cotton, let’s* see if it pays off for them. So, you’re telling me that you don’t understand what other people are saying to you, so resort to outdated memes? top kek bro, but you’ll need some better b8, m8. Weatherheight Not as such – manipulation usually has an end run toward which it is aimed. I didn’t get that here. I didn’t hear him say at all that his contributions were more important than his. What I heard him say that he suddenly realized he wasn’t mentioned at all, and that hurt a little. He also acknowledged that it was silly and petty. Manipulative behavior often is more about destroying the other’s argument and less about undermining one’s own argument. I suppose that a very clever manipulator could make that work, but Clevin thus far hasn’t been demonstrating that behavior. You could be right. But, as yet and to my eye, the text doesn’t justify that interpretation. However, if you happen to be right, you may crow loudly. Ruth Kaplan Why keep trying to convince this guy? It’s pretty obviously a boy around thirteen years old who doesn’t understand adult relationships. He’ll figure it out when he gets older, hopefully. Rando Ah the old, I disagree with someone but can’t formulate a coherent argument, so I will instead resort to petty insults to attempt to trivialize them. It’s a bold strategy Cotton, let’s see if it pays off for ’em. Ruth Kaplan That phrase was tired before you used it twice in one thread, lil buddy. Weatherheight They’re entitled to their opinion. I’m not saying they are wrong, just that their viewpoint is colored by their preconceptions and life experiences. Revelatory, if you will. Retrikaethan as a naturally manipulative person, i’m not seeing what you’re seeing. care to elaborate? Weatherheight I upvote this both for the irony and for the self-awareness. Prodigal It really wasn’t any such thing. Mechwarrior You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. AdamBombTV You pair of adorable dorks. zarawesome I am in lesbians with you too, Clevin Jovial Contrarian – YOUR BUTT. I REALLY LOVE YOUR BUTT. SAY IT. palmvos given that there are women who are into men’s butts. this may actually be true. (note not the verbal but, the visual one.) Goatmon It’s very helpful that you added that clarification, just in case anyone was confused. JohnTomato There are people that would take Palmvos’ statement literally. palmvos i will now make a larger attempt at humor… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JphDdGV2TU palmvos it was a small attempt at humor. Goatmon Ah, sorry. It didn’t really come off that way to me. Darkoneko Hellsing awwww Quite Likely 2 point for mature adult conflict resolution! Walter Such D’awww! Simeon This is narrative by telling, not showing. Kifre This is one of those times where I wonder if just maybe I should wander off for ten weeks and come back and binge 20 pages in a go… The pacing of this comic and the impact on the story line is so much different when you read it page to page instead of as a whole. Lheticus Videre Oh look, a relationship in fiction that had a rough spot that was resolved WITHOUT drama! See guys, it CAN in fact work! :p ClockworkDawn Seems as though more than a few people think that such a thing is impossible. 😛 Walter One ice cream, 2 spoons. This is real. Callinectes Is it so hard to buy two ice creams though? Multiplication teaches me that that would be twice as good. Walter We are on a tight budget here! Those checks aren’t gonna tear up themselves! Lisa Izo +1 to you for that post. skh On the next page everyone could die and I would accept it because I had this. <3 Shjade On the next page: It turns out Ali’s still been dreaming this whole time. It’s been two months since the Gurawara incident and having put all her focus into finding out who he really is she’s neglected both Clevin and Valkyrie, which have deteriorated in their own ways. Also her hair is a mess. Guilherme Carvalho not her hair nnnnoooOOOOOOOO Lisa Izo This. ICannotFindIveLostMyMind I put forth that she hasn’t experienced anything real since the Menace confrontation. What does a person experience while being mind controlled? Patrick was absolutely correct when he said he couldn’t mind control anyone because Patrick doesn’t really exist. Menace is killing any super powerful enough to ever be a threat to him. The dreams, the fractures in reality? Her mind fighting back. She really can’t fly, and at some point her mind did give up fighting and “took off the mask”, so to say. She can’t suppress the heavy strain her mind is under, however – hence the briefcase. Shjade All of which is, of course, merely a self-delusion to try to keep her self convinced she’s “the good guy.” In reality, of course, Alison was Menace all along. Lisa Izo And both were the duck. Incendax This feels so sudden. I know they have supposedly been together for months, but we’ve barely seen them together at all. The Elsewise Oh how ni–wait. Wait a second. My tragedy senses are tingling. Lheticus Videre People’s tragedy senses have been tingling since page 2 of this issue. :p Maybe even page 1. Guilherme Carvalho …of this comic, you mean. Robbie X Pierce Oh no how did I miss that! You’re so right. Some guy Mine went numb somewhere during the park philosophy era. Jac nnoooOOOOOO- HanoverFist I think I may have found the theme-song for Al/Clevin (and superhero romance generally). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-6QknAOsVo Weatherheight Aw, that awkward moment when Freud short circuits your language control centers. SJ This page must be an example of some of those consequences I was promised nine months ago… Lisa Izo Yes. If you torture people, threaten them, and become an authoritarian fascist….. you get true love. Truly a fate worse than death. That’ll teach her. (waiting on the flurry of posts now) Weatherheight Post! E. Howell Posty post post, posted posthaste! Lisa Izo This has literally been the nicest ‘flurry of posts’ I’ve ever had. palmvos you say that now…. but you might want to look at that statue in your front or is it back yard again…. say are your doors locked? Zorae42 hah, that would be amusing if Moffat hadn’t completely ruined the continuity of his own creature and made them not scary by doing so. I’d suggest watching Blink and then not watching any other episode with them in it afterwards. You’re not missing out on much and they get to remain a really well done and creepy creature. Stephanie Your Doctor Who opinions are so good. That was my exact reaction when they brought them back and managed to make them more silly than scary. It amazes me that Moffat wrote so many of the very best episodes in the Davies era and then just drove the show right up its own ass the second he took the wheel. palmvos I suspect its because when he became the show runner he had no one to say, hey boss what about this and this. or Boss, that’s awful, can we try again? Everybody needs an editor. I would like to submit the comment section of the internet as proof. palmvos no. I am still having trouble sleeping after seeing Bink some time ago. Matthew Exactly. The Angels are terrifying in Blink but that terror gets diluted with every new episode they were in. (I feel the same way about the Daleks; the Dalek episode early in the first season of the reboot was a wonderful tribute to the critters, and made them scary again in a way that would have been a perfect swan song. But the writers just couldn’t resist bringing them back over and over. A critter that our hero can barely defeat once is scary. A billion of them that the hero defeats over and over is boring). Lisa Izo I’m not sure what this post means. I’m somehow thinking it has something to do with Dr Who. palmvos counselor, what was your first clue? palmvos I am disappointed in the lack of response to lisa’s blatant provocation. lisa deserves her turn starting a long thread in this page- SJ (blast from past- note probably over 100 pages to go) and Rando have each started a round so… ill add to this thread. I like the idea of a female doctor who! now if only i could watch the show…. Zorae42 I’m excited about it too! Especially since Steven Moffat is FINALLY leaving. God he became such an awful show runner. But watching the new season means catching up with all his garbage and I’m not looking forward to it ugh. Stephanie I held my nose and caught up after I found out about 13. The good news is, it’s only garbage through season 9. Season 10 was surprisingly good. The show stopped feeling like it was trying to crawl up its own ass all the time, we got a new companion who was more of an actual human and less of a super special snowflake, and there was generally a shift away from convoluted nonsense arcs back to fun monsters-of-the-week. There were still a couple clunkers and moments of crap writing, but it was a huge improvement overall. Lisa Izo In the few episodes I’ve watched (I’ve only seen like 4 episodes in all) the Companion (I forget the name, it was a blonde girl) did seem sort of speshul snowflake-ish to me… but like I said in another post, I really don’t know anything about the show except that one episode had the Governor, and the actor who played Dr. Who in a couple of episodes I saw was the Purple Man in Jessica Jones, and he’s a really good actor. Stephanie The blonde one is Rose–she’s basically okay, I don’t have strong feelings about her. The one I was referring to was Clara, who…I mean, she wasn’t awful, but she wasn’t interesting enough on her own to justify the amount of time the show spent fellating her. Pretty much every episode with her had a solid 20 cumulative minutes of runtime devoted to emphasizing how special she is and how the Doctor adores her so much that he would rend the universe in twain to avenge her. To be honest, there’s always some amount of that with the companions–after all, they have to be “special” enough that the Doctor is willing to choose them out of all the people in all the universe throughout all of time (but realistically usually just 21st-century UK) to travel with him and see the wonders of time and space. But Clara took it to a new level. It was unbearable. The show has had a lot of great actors in the title role. I thought the most recent one, Peter Capaldi, was excellent, although unfortunately hampered by the frequently atrocious writing prior to season 10. palmvos Rose… the companion they almost can’t get rid of? what they did to Clara was neat at first but I agree it got old. especially when she was basically addicted to being a companion, but somehow had to maintain a normal life?!?! they really could have done a better job with Ashildr. Moffat basically wasted the concept. you have to remember that very very very few companions have died. (adric was the first and it was though his own militant stupidity) the doctor takes the protection of his companions seriously. but yes what he did for Clara was insane, part of it was the almost ridiculous way she managed to kill herself, but really just let her die already. Stephanie Yeah, it was really hard to take that episode seriously because the death felt so contrived, abrupt, and silly–and then ended up being functionally negated anyway so what’s the point? And the memory wiping thing was beyond stupid, like I straight-up couldn’t suspend my disbelief that either of them thought the “gamble” was a good idea. Nothing will ever top the eye booger monster episode for bad writing, though. palmvos lets see. the premise for Listen is utter and complete bollocks the statue of liberty is a weeping angel?!?!? really? go back and see the doctors goal in blink, then listen to his warning on the last episode for the ponds. does no one check these plot points? Arkone Axon Wait… what? Seriously? They made the STATUE OF LIBERTY into a weeping angel? How the hell does that even work? They needed Batman in the room when someone floated that idea, to reprise his quote to Superman, “if I had a week I could explain all the reasons why that wouldn’t work.” palmvos i will allow the responsible party to try (and fail) to explain it. http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2013-05-02/steven-moffat-clears-up-doctor-whos-statue-of-liberty-mystery-kind-of other wait, what? things the cult of silence… how’d they remember to write on themselves? and I’ve been reminded of the villain’s goal in trial of a time lord. (note the villain here scared THE MASTER so much he tried to help….) I’d really like that one explained. why couldn’t he do what the master did in the same situation? Arkone Axon Head, meet desk. Ouch. This reminds me of why my niece stopped watching the show – she did NOT have nice things to say about Moffat. Then again, I remember him saying a particularly stupid thing, “I like that Helen Mirren has been saying the next doctor should be a woman. I would like to go on record and say that the Queen should be played by a man.” To which people pointed out: the next “Queen” will probably be named Charles or William, and a man. Zorae42 Yeah, half my problem with Moffat is his attempts to be so clever but doing it super poorly and in ways that don’t make sense. The other half is that he’s apparently a misogynistic ass and it shows in his writing. Like how all of his female characters feel exactly the same. Or how he apparently believes all women ultimately want children and to be a mother. All of them. And not being able to have kids makes you broken. Just ugh. I’d be fine with watching stuff with slightly poor writing if it didn’t make me feel so gross. Stephanie Another thing that’s annoying about Moffat is that he seems to prefer ruminating on the Doctor’s worst qualities over having him undergo personal growth. Like the show just sort of repeatedly announces that he’s filled with hatred and self-loathing, rubs the audience’s nose in it, and then never goes anywhere with it. I saw an analysis once that compared the “Dalek” episode from the Davies era to a Moffat-era episode that also had Daleks in it. In both episodes, the Doctor is told “You would be/are a good Dalek.” But in the Davies episode, he’s horrified at the accusation, does some introspection, and ultimately changes his outlook. In the Moffat episode, he’s just kind of like “yup.” Season 10 was better in that respect, though. Arkone Axon Hmmm. Reminds me of a friend who wanted her ovaries removed (to prevent the possibility of ovarian cancer, which she was highly at risk for). The doctors literally did everything they could to convince her this was a horrible decision and a huge mistake she’d regret the first time she picked up a child and realized “I can never have one of my own! Wah! I will never be able to hold a child that contains 50% of my own DNA!” She did not appreciate that. Very intelligent and interesting person. Here’s an educational comic she wrote some years ago, about her chosen profession: http://imgur.com/gallery/pSVRr Arkone Axon The actor you’re thinking of is David Tennant. He’s actually considered the best of all the Doctors, because of his performance and the effort he put into it (not surprising, since he grew up as a fan of the original show. His mother knitted him a long scarf like the previous “best Doctor” habitually wore). Playing Purple Man was an incredible twist, actually – fans were so used to him playing heroic roles that seeing him be so evil and vile was a real shock. palmvos Heretic!. Tom baker is the best. Tennant couldn’t even keep on the show more than 5 years…. now we can start the flame wars! but first, have a jellybaby. Lisa Izo I did like him as the Purple Man. He did a really good job of being creepy with his staring eyes and friendly smile thing. Arkone Axon Oh yes. And then saying the things that ruined lives. That poor guy stuck in a wheelchair living with the crazy mother he hated, because Killgrave’s response to “you only need one kidney” was “nope! I want to be a whole man. Stop arguing and do the surgery.” The kid who was told, “children should be neither seen nor heard. Go stand in the closet. It’ll be fun.” Tennant’s an incredible performer. He went from being the heroic Doctor to being something so… vile. Even the Kingpin wasn’t that bad (in the first season of “Daredevil,” anyway. Second season he doesn’t actually get DO much… but he makes it clear he’s done pretending to be anything other than a sadistic bully). palmvos I haven’t managed to see season 10 yet. i’m looking forward to it. palmvos oh go watch some Colin Baker. trust me after your eyes recover Moffat won’t seem so bad. Lisa Izo I wish I could get worked up over a female Dr. Who but I’ve watched maybe 3 or 4 episodes of that show in all, and one episode was only because the actor who played the Governor from the Walking Dead was in it. I’m not sure if it’s normal for the Doctor’s race to be able to change from one gender to another or if it’s happened before or what, so I’d be talking without any knowledge of the subject matter. I know, I just lost more nerd cred by admitting that I’ve almost never watched Dr. Who. I’ve also never watched Battlestar Galactica the remake because I couldnt deal with Battlestar Galactica that doesn’t have Lorne Greene in it and has a female Starbuck, and I’ve never watched any episodes of Game of Thrones. Stephanie It is normal for Time Lords (that’s the Doctor’s species name) to regenerate into different genders, yeah. Interestingly enough, the show started including more and more examples of that happening in the last couple of seasons. I think they were intentionally preparing viewers for 13 being a woman. But dudes are still salty because the Doctor himself has been a white guy every single time, so now apparently that’s a precious tradition even though nothing about the lore requires him to be restricted to that demographic. Also making him a her 1 time out of 13 is going to deprive boys of a (terrible) male role model, and as we all know there is a real dearth of male role models in fiction. Where will they ever find another one? palmvos ok, two time-lords that i know of have done that previously. (in the new set) one is the master (misty) the Dr.’s timelord nemesis, best friend?, etc. etc. also a time-lord captain of the guard not only changed genders but race. when from a white male to a black female. she was not amused. in the old set female timelords had a neat ability- they got to choose their next appearance. (see romanna’s regeneration during the tom baker era) so ok, sigh…. the doctor as a bad role model…. i can see it (Colin Baker). but more because he is a character who has the awareness and understanding of Q from star trek and a portion of the ego too, but chooses to act the part of a bumbling idiot most of the time. in effect he trolls his opponents. his companions exist in part to ask ‘doctor?’ to get him to explain himself. ok, again to reiterate myself. we are discussing a show that was first shot in the 1960’s in England. the entire cast was white back then. I think most of the actors on tv were white back then. can we please have some allowance for the past?!? or are you going to insist that William Hartnell have a gay companion? Zorae42 I don’t think they were criticizing the past episodes’ casting choices. But rather the outrage some people had at the current one. Also, I don’t think he’s a terrible roll model because of his ‘bumbling idiot act’. But because he is super smart, has a towering ego, believes himself right all the time, and doesn’t take other people’s feelings into consideration…. Basically a self-righteous, smarter than thou ass. Actually, if Izo has a problem with Alison’s action, then she probably wont like Doctor Who that much lol. Especially the 10th Doctor. Since, with the exception of Donna, his companions were so in love with him that they never called him out on the shit he did (man now there’s a bad role model). Stephanie I loved Donna for calling him out. Bill is pretty good about calling him out as well. And the only times I ever liked Clara were when she was calling him out. Like, the cue cards she gave him were pretty good. Companions should do more calling him out, that’s ostensibly the whole point of them anyway. God, you’re so right about the self-righteousness. What drives me mad is when he decides to be a sanctimonious jackass about humans trying to gain immortality. What a massive fucking hypocrite. Like, if mortality is so very precious, Doctor, why don’t you precommit to killing yourself in 80 years? Oh, you don’t want to, because dying sucks? Then maybe you should stop with the smug monologues? He can be a really fun character, and often quite likeable–but every time he gives a speech about how great death is, I want to beat him over the head with a stack of 2,000 calendars accumulated over the course of his lifespan. Azmodan He isn’t really a hypocrite though. He has died, repeatedly. Every doctor is still kind of a new person/personality, just with the memories of the previous incarnation. Personally I didn’t like Bill, I kind of wish we were getting a new companion to go with the new doctor. I might have liked her better if she hadn’t come out of the gate so contrarily? She just seemed to jump on the “no doctor, you don’t know what you are talking about, let me tell you what you should be doing” too soon. I also haven’t really seen anyone complaining about a female doctor, aside from female fans who can’t crush on the new one like they did with 10 and 11. Stephanie I think it’s debatable how much regeneration counts as “dying.” I personally think the fact that he was willing to “kill” another Time Lord as long as they had more regenerations left suggests that he doesn’t think of it that way. It may come with a change in appearance and personality, but there’s still a continuity there. Regardless, he’s had several individual incarnations who lasted for multiple human lifespans, so he’s absolutely a hypocrite. Bill’s being contrary is a big part of what I liked about her. She had a spine, she was paying attention, she wasn’t just going to passively accept crap like “Oh I’m going to wipe your memories now.” The Doctor needs companions who are prepared to call him out on his shit, because otherwise he goes off the rails pretty quickly. Even if it’s a little presumptuous, it’s absolutely necessary. You’re lucky that you haven’t run into the salty dudes, but here’s a few examples if you’re curious the kinds of things they are saying: http://www.wehuntedthemammoth.com/2017/07/16/the-best-worst-reactions-to-the-news-that-the-next-doctor-who-will-be-a-woman/ Azmodan Personally it has always seemed like the current doctor was more or less dying, given how resistant he is to letting the regeneration happen at times. That doctor, as a person is going to cease to exist. What else is that, except for death? It’s hard to say why he would be willing to kill other time lords if it was considered death still. I mean he is an alien species with his own culture. I still wouldn’t call him a hypocrite though. The fact his life span is longer than a humans, doesn’t make it hypocritical to denounce them for attempting immortality. Also, haven’t most of the people trying for immortality been pretty terrible? The main one that always springs to mind is stretched sheet of skin woman, from the far future. The last human, I think? I don’t have a problem with a companion being assertive or forceful in their opinion, I just kind of felt like they brought it on too soon with her. Their very first adventure she started spouting off about how the Doctor was so horribly wrong on something and being terrible, and it just kind of irked me. The first time out should be an amazing experience showing off the wonders of the universe. Save the acting as the moral compass for the doctor, for after we have actually gotten to know you a little as a companion, and have some respect for your actual opinion. Just personal opinion though. Random person who was just introduced, versus the Doctor. I am going to assume the Doctor knows what he is talking about. Thanks, I don’t need examples though. I know how terrible people are. 😛 Apparently we are getting a new companion! I had heard Bill was coming back, but that is apparently just for the Christmas episode. We are getting a new companion for 13, so all is good. Stephanie The people trying to be immortal do tend to conveniently turn out to be dicks, but the Doctor inevitably has all kinds of sanctimonious objections before he even finds out they’re dicks. Like, he had a big problem with the Lazarus guy before anyone knew that the machine intended to make him immortal would accidentally turn him into a life-eating scorpion monster. And even after the scorpion thing happened, the speech he gives the guy isn’t “Sorry, it’s too bad your machine didn’t work right, but I can’t let you go around eating people” — it’s more like “Oh, death is the way of things, you’re supposed to die, you were wrong to try to prevent it.” He’s a hypocrite because he takes full advantage of his extended lifespan, while simultaneously giving these condescending speeches to any human who doesn’t want to be dead in 80 years. To hear him tell it, it’s inherently foolish, hubristic, immoral to try to live any longer than that–“oh, you stupid humans, you don’t know what kind of a gift you’re throwing away, I know better because I’m immortal and I’m super angsty about it.” And yet, like I said earlier, if he really believed that he could kill himself any time he likes. But he doesn’t, because immortality is just great for him–he just doesn’t want us to have it. He comes off like an elitist who doesn’t want the filthy human peasants rising above our station by earning a privilege he was lucky enough to be born with. palmvos the doctor has always had a HUGE ego. (it fills 1/2 the TARDIS) go wade through Hartnel or see the regeneration to Colin baker, or finally tom baker ‘why do i talketo myself, well you always want to talk to the smartest person in the room..’ Stephanie Huh? I’m not sure what you think I was saying in that comment, or why you’re getting all multiple-punctuation at me about it…I was not shitting on the classic series for having a white guy Doctor every time. The time period was what it was and time travel isn’t real, we can’t exactly go into the past to cast different people in the role. The folks I was shitting on are the salty dudes in the modern day who think he has to keep being a white guy forever, just because he has been so far. Also the reason I think the Doctor (at least recent incarnations) is a terrible role model is because he is perpetually wracked with self-loathing and guilt, and is constantly barely restraining himself from committing atrocities, and would pretty much always rather run away from his problems than deal with them. Dude could not be less emotionally healthy if he tried, and the show practically revels in emphasizing that. He’s a fun character, but not exactly someone that I would want my children to emulate, if I had any. palmvos I am sorry i misunderstood. i was up late and didn’t make the right connection. the modern doctor is very much an emotional wreck. granted the people who started the new series basically demanded that of him. but yes that is crazy. palmvos sigh….. you spend a paragraph saying i don’t care about dr. who, I am severely tempted to quote Hamlet at you over that. to be honest game of thrones primary attraction seems to be the actresses preform many key scenes in various states of undress. (go see the honest trailers for censored examples!) someone has tried to create the term sexposition to describe a scene where critical information is disclosed during intercourse. making the scene necessary for the plot because of how often it goes on in the show. it is also an anti epic. given your objections to the way the plot goes in this comic… id almost like to see your reaction to some of the consequences (i.e. DEATH) that are meted out in that story. after all the closest thing to a good guy in the whole place… is the first one to loose his head. (poor Sean) I have read several of the books and currently have horrible internet most of the time so watching GoT is not a high priority, it wont be even if that gets fixed. as far as nerd cred… there is too much stuff to read and watch anymore. now I will say that DR. Who is one o the few shows where the new one is an improvement over the old one. to put this in context the original series ran from the 1960s to the early 1990’s. (holds the tile for longest running science fiction show on TV) it did this in Britain as a 1/2 hour show. when it was brought over here it came on public TV as 1 and 1/2 hour blocks no commercials. I encountered it in the 1980’s during this time most shows even the good ones in the US were set up for syndication with little or no continuing plot elements and everything resolved in 1/2 hour. (star blazers and robotech were notable exceptions even if they were childish) imagine the reaction- a show you had to commit to where missing a week meant you often had to piece things together, also the episodes were normally in order which meant when you got to the end it would start at the beginning again giving a chance to see them filling in the blanks. now because of the eras (doctor 4 was low budget 1970’s!) the production quality was…. well. its part of the charm. not all the episodes were good but overall it was far more interesting that many of the sci fi shows of that era. the new series features the same persistence and even more long running plot elements call backs and call forwards! with better budgets and production qualities. and as silly as the episode was going into a medieval arena riding a tank playing an electric guitar… (it was an ax fight…) in short some of its appeal was it was a type of show that here in the US we were sadly lacking for much of our lives. i’d be interested to see what a lady I seduced into loving DR. Who and has been following the new set far more than the old might add. Lisa Izo “you spend a paragraph saying i don’t care about dr. who, I am severely tempted to quote Hamlet at you over that.” Well… I don’t care enough to get into a debate about the right/wrong aspect of a female Dr Who. I don’t watch the show. I am, however, very wordy. 🙂 Most of my post was that I don’t know anything about what little I do know about it (which is practically nothing). It’s hard to get invested in a debate on something fan-based if you’re not part of the fanbase. My sci-fi of choice are/were shows like Stargate SG-1/Atlantis, Sliders (until they got rid of Quinn), Andromeda, Murdoch Mysteries, Quantum Leap, Star Trek Voyager, zombie theme shows (Walking Dead pre-Negan, Fear the Walking Dead, Z Nation for camp value), etc. Arkone Axon From what I’ve seen, the “outrage” about a female Doctor has been manufactured and made up to try to generate more interest. Most of the male fans I’ve spoken to have a rather different question: will she be any good? Each new Doctor is a different incarnation, some are better than others. And the male fans are generally less interested in the appearance of female characters than in their personalities and nature. Rose (the blonde) gradually became more impressive over time. Clara was just… very much a turnoff, with how she was supposed to be oh so special but was essentially what TV Tropes would call a “Creator’s Pet.” Amy was pretty awesome, however – with her quick wit and her ability to literally overcome retconned history through sheer willpower (as was her husband, who became the Last Centurion). Donna was awesome because she could regularly put the Doctor in his place – and that bears repeating: she was able to slap the arrogance out of a thousand year old alien genius (quite literally, at times). But my personal favorite is Martha, the Woman who Walked. The one who was already a doctor herself when she met the Doctor. And the one who retired from Companioning of her own volition rather than being pushed away or killed or something. Martha was awesome. In other words, will this be like with Ghostbusters 2016, where constant accusations about sexism and calls to support women by spending lots of money on tickets and merchandise couldn’t quite cover up the fact that it was just a very mediocre movie? Or will it be like Wonder Woman, where they didn’t need to create a fake controversy because it was just that GOOD? (Personally I do have hopes. The teasers I’ve seen gave her a definite “Dresden Files” look to her, with the long leather coat and all 🙂 ) Lisa Izo Are the companions always women? palmvos yes and no. women form the dominant gender yet of the very first companions one of the three was a man. Arkone Axon They usually have been, yes – but not always. One of the original rules was “no romance on the TARDIS,” since the Doctor is an alien and so he’d be more interested in his own kind (not to mention that he was already a father AND a grandfather when things first got rolling… so he’s been there, done that). In the “new” series (i.e. beginning with the Ninth Doctor) Rose, like Clara, was presented as a romantic option – which actually made them less popular with fans. By contrast Martha (my personal favorite) WANTED the Doctor… but he was either unknowingly or deliberately oblivious to her advances. Donna never thought of him as anything other than a very dear friend. Amy was briefly interested in a tryst with the Doctor – but then acknowledged that her heart (and the rest of her) belonged to Rory, the sweet young man who absolutely adored her. One of the reasons why I enjoyed the series (and hated Torchwood, because they did the exact OPPOSITE) was that the Doctor constantly emphasized the fact that he was a raving, squealing fanboy for… humans. To him, humans were awesome and he held them in very high regard. As a result, he kept encouraging humans to aspire to ever greater heights. The first triumph of Matt Smith’s Doctor included barging into a young man’s bedroom, yelling at him to shut down the porn on his computer, then making him conduct a conference video chat with the leaders of the world (“This is your moment of triumph. You just need to be… brilliant. And you can do it! Also, wipe your browser history after you’re done.”). As seen with his companions: Rose, who started out as a retail worker and became “Bad Wolf,” a thoroughly capable super fighter. Donna, whose skills as a temp office worker made her supremely effective at fighting evil (who else would have thought to go digging through records and pull up the vacation time logs?). Martha, who was already working as a resident physician before roaming time and space and finding herself bandaging up all kinds of species. Amy, who kept remembering true timelines in spite of cosmic retcons until it became routine for her (the Doctor once tried to convince a Nazi Amy that he was actually her friend… and she told him to shut up and then showed him a blackboard where she’d already long since figured it out in preparation for his arrival) Rory, who went from being a junior nurse to the Last Centurion, with two thousand years of experience as a warrior and guardian. And an awesome nurse. (And then Clara, who… made me quit watching. I might actually start watching again with the new Doctor. Especially since Clara’s no longer around) Danygalw Actually Ghostbusters was a good movie. It was funny and the action was gorgeous. Lisa Izo Gotta disagree with you there. Saw the movie. It was just… cringy, except for Melissa McCarthy sometimes. Arkone Axon IT BEGINS! :p Seriously, though. I agree with you – if you’re talking about the original. Here’s the thing: the original movie starred three legendary comedians at the height of their careers, plus the talented but relatively unknown guy they got when they couldn’t get Eddie Murphy. The script was created by one of them, the jokes were their own, and it was brilliantly done. The 2016 version starred four well known female comedians who were assigned roles in a yet another pathetic attempt to reboot an existing franchise because Hollywood is scared of new ideas. The jokes were NOT their own, the script was made up by writers so idiotic they thought the original was an action movie and not a comedy, and was stuffed full of product placement – a high budget film with a lot riding on it, and then they realized they were looking at a film that wasn’t going to be the big moneymaker they were hoping for. The sad thing is that it could have been amazing, if they’d handled it better. They could have made it a franchise – as in, the original four went on to franchise their business, and the four lead roles are running the first all-female Ghostbusters franchise. And then let the women use their own jokes instead of forcing them to recite lines someone else fed them. That would have been awesome – especially when Bill Murray showed up as Venkman and they had to juxtapose the respect they owed him as a company founder who had repeatedly saved the world, with the disgust he merited as… well, he IS a pretty sleazy fellow (his introductory scene in the original has him falsifying the results on an experiment in order to hit on one of his own students). I had the… educational experience, of being hired as a writer for a television show that never did get off the ground. They wrote the script for the pilot episode. We looked at it, shuddered, and rewrote it. They then went with the original script. The pilot did VERY poorly (and the actors were so skilled they actually emphasized the problems in that original script. A “sympathetic” character not only came across as incredibly creepy in the script, but the actor’s performance added sexually aggressive overtones that further highlighted the problem). We then tried to work on the next episode. Our script was gutted by the boss’ idiot son, whose e-mail to us was what my coauthor described as the most insulting thing we’d ever received (I thought it over for ten seconds or so, comparing it to previous incidents, before agreeing). One of the things I remember most about that e-mail was his arrogant claim that the actors just read whatever they’re told to read, that it’s up to the writers to create the lines and then the actors do what they’re told. Compare that to the “behind the scenes” interviews with the actors and writers of blockbusters such as the MCU films, where they constantly talk about the interactions between performers and writers, the mutual respect. Then… look at Ghostbusters 2016. How much respect do you think the writers gave to the performers there? Matthew I feel like I’m the only person in the world who didn’t much like the original Ghostbusters. Didn’t hate it, but it didn’t seem that funny to me. I wonder if this lines up with me not liking the 3 Stooges (but loving the Marx Brothers). Arkone Axon YOU DON’T LIKE THE THREE STOOGES!? *prepares to report this post as inappropriate and block the user and be all outraged… then upvotes instead* :p Danygalw I have seen the first Ghostbusters movie. I recall nothing about it but the theme tune and the giant marshmallow. Not a single memorable character or line in the whole thing. Not true of the new one. Arkone Axon You should check out the original again. It’s a fairly low budget film, mind – and an OLD low budget film. Not exactly the greatest special effects or whatnot. But there were some amazing bits in there. Like Spengler’s oblivious response to his secretary’s flirtations. “What do you do for fun?” “I collect spores, molds, and fungus.” And of course the big scene where Venkman shows up at his client’s apartment to be unprofessional as hell, only to find her possessed by a hellhound (which is too much even for him). Which ends with him calling up the other ghostbusters to inform them of what’s going on, and when he mentions how he doped her up with 300 ccs of Thorazine, they don’t even question WHY Venkman would have had access to enough Thorazine to date rape six elephants. Just “right, okay. Come back to the station as quick as you can.” Danygalw You have low standards for “amazing”. Lisa Izo “From what I’ve seen, the “outrage” about a female Doctor has been manufactured and made up to try to generate more interest.” I could believe that. Controversy sells. palmvos then can we agree that the cancellation of Stargate Atlantis was a crime? Danygalw It’s never happened *yet*, that’s why people care about it, but it has been thoroughly established (mostly by steven moffat) that Time Lords can regenerate into being played by actors of different genders. (and races. We’ll get there.) Lisa Izo I’m assuming if Time Lords can generate into people of different AGES, that’s probably a much bigger change than changing race (I just looked at a picture of all the past doctors). Danygalw That too, but the specific case has been demonstrated. Stephanie I’m sure there will be absolutely no further conflict in SFP following this idyllic interlude. That’s how stories work, right? Like all those apocalypse movies that start with a family having a lovely morning together and then nothing bad happens and they live happily ever after. SJ I’m sure there will be absolutely no further conflict in SFP following this idyllic interlude. That’s how stories work, right? And it should be taken as assumed that any future conflict will be a consequence of previous actions, because… ? Stephanie …because, and I’m dropping the sarcasm here, that is how (good) stories work. SJ …because, and I’m dropping the sarcasm here, that is how (good) stories work. Well, I guess this isn’t a good story, then. Because that’s not how Issue 6 worked: the conflict in Issue 6 was not a consequence of the events of Issue 5, nor was the conflict in Issue 5 a consequence of the events of Issue 4… Also, who the hell said anything about conflict, in the first place? I asked why Alison still hasn’t faced any consequences, and you hit me with “Relax, they’re going to build up to the conflict.” Those two words aren’t synonyms! Stephanie I’m not sure where you’re getting this? The central conflict in Issue 6, in which Alison forced Max to boost Feral to help her save more people and save her from nonstop surgery hell, directly resulted from the events of issue 3, in which Feral went under the knife in the first place. That’s probably the most blatant example of earlier conflict driving future conflict, but it’s certainly not the first time that something from a previous arc has shown up again and been relevant to the plot. As with most serial works of fiction, this story consistently has hanging threads from prior arcs play into later ones. I’ll try to explain why I see a relationship between conflict and consequences. Max, his mom, Gurwara, and the secret of Alison’s criminal act are still hanging threads; they have not been resolved, and they all present potential dangers to Alison and her interests. I expect any or all of these threads to resurface in the future to drive further conflict. I expect them to drive this conflict by biting Alison in the ass, because story conflict almost invariably takes the form of screwing things up for the protagonist somehow, forcing them to take action in response. There’s your consequences. That’s the shape of a narrative, that’s how long-form storytelling works. You’re upset that it hasn’t happened yet, but webcomics are one of the slowest forms of storytelling and you have to expect to be made to wait for things. It might happen in this arc, or it might take a few arcs–remember, Feral’s surgery hell thread wasn’t resolved until 3 issues later. I get that you want to see Alison suffer for this ASAP, but that doesn’t have to be how this works. I’ve seen any number of serial works of fiction where something the protagonists did in one arc came back to bite them entire seasons/issues/whatever later. I can give examples if you’re interested. SJ I’m not sure where you’re getting this? The central conflict in Issue 6, in which Alison forced Max to boost Feral to help her save more people and save her from nonstop surgery hell, directly resulted from the events of issue 3 Actually, the central conflict in Issue 6 directly resulted from Alison’s existential crisis over the stones problem in her philosophy class… in Issue 6. Her relationship with Max is something that began and ended… in Issue 6. The conflict between Alison and Max provided resolution to the Feral storyline, but was not a consequence of the Feral storyline. I’ll try to explain why I see a relationship between conflict and consequences. Max, his mom, Gurwara, and the secret of Alison’s criminal act are still hanging threads; they have not been resolved, and they all present potential dangers to Alison and her interests. I expect any or all of these threads to resurface in the future to drive further conflict. I expect them to drive this conflict by biting Alison in the ass, one way or another, because story conflict almost invariably takes the form of screwing things up for the protagonist somehow, forcing them to take action in response. There’s your consequences. That’s the shape of a narrative, that’s how long-form storytelling works. 1) You appear to be conflating “callbacks” with “consequences.” 2) I don’t actually believe that any of those things will come back to bite Alison in the ass. Six issues of this webcomic have shown Alison to be remarkably comeuppance-proof. You’re upset that it hasn’t happened yet, but webcomics are one of the slowest forms of storytelling and you have to expect to be made to wait for things. Ah, so I just have to wait until Issue 9 for Alison to finally get her comeuppance for what she did in Issue 6, is that it? Well, unfortunately, I don’t know if I can count on getting jury duty again in two years, to have the idle time to catch up on this webcomic again. … On the other hand, I wasn’t actually selected for a jury, so who knows? Stephanie Gertsch I really wish we had seen Feral again or had some callback to her early in Issue 6, since she’s such a big part of the plot but we hadn’t seen her in so many pages. However I do give the series credit for Allison getting the idea for her project in Issue 5 and then having her beliefs tested in Issue 6. Stephanie >The conflict between Alison and Max provided resolution to the Feral storyline, but was not a consequence of the Feral storyline. This is a hell of a reach. How was it not a consequence? If the Feral storyline hadn’t happened, if Alison hadn’t had Feral’s suffering hanging over her head for the intervening issues, then the situation with Max wouldn’t have happened. Resolving Feral’s situation–ending her suffering, delivering the promised “one punch” to effect large-scale change–was Alison’s explicit motive for coercing Max. I genuinely don’t understand how you can just discount that and act like it’s not an example of a prior hanging thread driving future conflict. The stones were a factor, yes–events can have more than one contributing factor. I wouldn’t even call the stones the direct cause, they were more a manifestation of a long-running internal conflict that Gurwara forced to come to a head. They certainly don’t magically erase all prior events in the comic that fed into the Max incident. > You appear to be conflating “callbacks” with “consequences.” No, I am not. I know what the difference is. If Bob punches Joe in the face in Season 1, and in Season 2 someone is like “Hey remember when you punched Joe in the face?”, that’s a callback. If in Season 2 Bob loses his campaign for local office because the Joe-punching scandal came out in the press, that’s conflict and consequence. In my previous comment I was explicitly speaking about future conflict and consequence. You really have to be stretching to read the paragraph you quoted as being about “callbacks.” >I don’t actually believe that any of those things will come back to bite Alison in the ass. Bully for you. Let’s revisit that when the comic is actually finished. >Ah, so I just have to wait until Issue 9 for Alison to finally get her comeuppance Yeah, you might. Sorry. Life’s tough and gratification is often delayed. And I’m willing to bet you’ll never get your desired “comeuppance” at all, since that’s a rather distinct concept from “consequences” and this comic is not an Aesop’s fable. SJ This is a hell of a reach. How was it not a consequence? If the Feral storyline hadn’t happened, if Alison hadn’t had Feral’s suffering hanging over her head for the intervening issues, then the situation with Max wouldn’t have happened. If Issue 3 didn’t exist, everything in Issue 6, up to the breakup, would have happened, anyway. Then, post-breakup, Alison receives the deus ex machina file, and then she assaults him. That was not a consequence of anything that happened prior to Issue 6. No, I am not. I know what the difference is. If Bob punches Joe in the face in Season 1, and in Season 2 someone is like “Hey remember when you punched Joe in the face?”, that’s a callback. If in Season 2 Bob loses his campaign for local office because the Joe-punching scandal came out in the press, that’s conflict and consequence. Yeah. And so far, what’s happened over the history of this webseries more closely resembles your first example than your second one. And I have no reason to believe that that’s going to change over time. And I’m willing to bet you’ll never get your desired “comeuppance” at all… So am I, which is why I quit reading SFP in the first place. And if it weren’t for the fact that I got summoned for jury duty, and had a week of literally nothing better to do than sit on my ass and screw with my phone for nine hours a day, while I waited on my name to be called, I wouldn’t have bothered to come back to it. Shame on me, though, for making the same mistake twice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q Stephanie >And so far, what’s happened over the history of this webseries more closely resembles your first example than your second one. It sure does when you bend over backwards to pretend that all the examples of the second one don’t count. “Oh, just because Alison explicitly coerced Max for the purpose of resolving something she’d been angsting about for three issues, doesn’t mean the Max incident was a consequence of that thing! Her clearly stated motive is totally irrelevant!” This conversation is pointless. SJ It doesn’t require “bending over backwards.” Remove one thing, the file, and you know what happens to Alison’s angst? Not a damned thing. And everything else in Issue 6 still happens, anyway: she still has a crisis over the stones problem, she still meets and breaks up with Max, she still clashes with Brad at the seminar, she still launches Valkyrie, she still ends up with Clevin, and she still gets played by Gurwara. The only way that the conflict between Alison and Max could be reasonably be called a consequence of the Feral story arc is if Alison knew that Max had powers before she broke up with him. Hell, I’d even buy it being the consequence if Max’s remarks about Feral had been the singular cause for their breakup, but it wasn’t; his remarks were simply the last straw. That was a conflict that was happening, with or without him invoking Feral. But we are in agreement that this conversation is pointless, so I guess there is that. Stephanie What exactly are you proposing she does in the universe where Issue 3 never happened? Goes over to Max’s place and beats him up for the fun of it? And apparently now the Feral incident has to be the direct cause of every single thing that happened in the entire chapter to “count” as a contributing factor in the Max Incident and the conflict stemming from it? I think you just don’t want to see it–you’re invested in the idea that nothing will ever come of the Max incident, so you have to deny even the very concept of plot threads coming back to drive conflict in future arcs. Arthur Frayn Awwwww. JohnTomato “Does this Super Suit make my butt look big?” Total 100% honesty is a zero sum game. palmvos questions like that have no good answer. none. elysdir I for one think this issue so far has been sweet and enjoyable, and I have no problem at all with the comic showing a period of minimal and easily resolved conflict. Coriander Ewwwwwww. Grooooooooosssssssssssss. M. Alan Thomas II Okay, I’m going to skip all the comment drama and get to actual comic plot: Am I the only one who sees panel 3 as ominous? Like she just saw or realized something? Lysiuj “I love yo… your…. your evil plan to take over the world?” Lisa Izo Stop trying to ship Patrick and Alison. That relationship is as broken as the mug she smashed into Patrick’s face. 🙂 palmvos Amazon has to make money somehow. Stephanie I think she just caught herself blurting “I love you.” M. Alan Thomas II But that would be boring! And feels like it doesn’t call for the blank expression. palmvos the implication is She didn’t realize that she did. btw let us men celebrate that Clevin has escaped the friend-zone! its time for him to get really stupid drunk and that presented to his love. so he can try to figure out what he’s been spending the past month apologizing for…. Lisa Izo I don’t see anything really omnous about it. She just realized mid-sentence that she was telling him that she loves him, which is probably the first time she’s said it in a romantic sense. Martine Votvik This is kinda how I figured it would turn out 🙂 However since this isn’t a comic about how everybody just lived happily ever after I’m expecting this peaceful calm to get busted up in one way or another soon. This page in relation to the two previous ones are like others have pointet out kind of a blueprint for healthy communication. It also shows how nicely things can be resolved when two people talk honestly about how they feel while also showing humility for the other person and willingness to listen. Philip Petrunak Really hoping this is another mind trick by whoever is fucking with her. Haha. Arklyte What for? So she could get back to Patrick? Pretty sure it won’t be the best option for either of them now. Patrick needs help, real help. ASAP. Just imagine what kind of a mental wreck someone who’s forced to listen to dirtiest fantasies of everyone around them since 14 would end up as. And now add on top of that how does he see himself after all he did. Maybe I’m wrong, but All doesn’t seem like the most supportive person around. Silenceaux From her expression, I’m not sure if she’s just tripping over “I love you” because that phrase has a lot of baggage, or if she just remembered something very important. palmvos she remembered that she hasn’t backed up her save files to the steam cloud yet… Shiromisa Shoe dropped! Mature and adult discussion achieved! Engage pre-bedtime snuggles! This is the most wholesome storyline, I love it. palmvos some of us can hope for a naughtier ending… though a 12 year old has been spotted in the comment section. Shiromisa I can’t, I know they’re legally considered adults but they are still so small and unfinished to me. Like, give Brad three to five years and I’d be like “helLO there” (it’s the vocab, I swear), but right now they’re just…too baby palmvos I know people get younger every year. so far they haven’t issued me a yard to order the kids off of yet but i fear its coming. also given that this comic almost opened on a discussion of Alison…. doing those things…. I keep expecting something to happen with that dangling thread. (maybe a really really awkward conversation with Lisa) Jimmyjims Aw. This page, this goddamn page and it’s gentility. “Hello I am a fragile human blob. I am an adult though so I try to ignore that but today my fragile inner blob did a thing and it just can’t seem to be talked away.” “Ahh I see, yes…no that is ok. I too also have my own fragile inner blob and it also sometimes wishes for acknowledgement and things that are not critical to survival but sure are nice so it sure makes sense to me that this is a big deal to you. Inner blob does not sit down and shut-up just because you tell it to.” “I am reassured by this, it is nice to know we share this thing. I think it will be ok now because sometimes it’s hard to be certain I am a big deal to you in the way you are to me.” “This is good. I will say nice things to you now because then if you feel better I will feel better because some of my happiness is tied to your happiness and that is a strength and a vulnerability.” Man. Sometimes I have the worst opinion of humans. And then sometimes I remember that we are capable of great gentleness. Tsapki Let the comment section run red with the blood of ethical discussion combatants! SmilingCorpse Not so much ethical discussions as much as it is one REALLY long thread trying to convince someone who has a poor understanding of what emotional manipulation is. Also the scant discussion on relationship dynamics here and there. Tsapki Fair enough, though I was more so just thinking on how there is almost always a subject on each page that that warrants a…serious? argument on some subject of the human condition. I’ve come to the realization that I’m terrible at discussing such things so I’ve decided that for the most part I’ll just sit back and observe and it hit me how it seemed like the Roman Coliseum to simply sit back and watch what can be in some cases considered a fight unfold and just look on in fascination. SmilingCorpse Right? A place where (minus the occasional troll) people calmly (most of the time) and rationally discuss their views? A rare oddity in this age, it seems. Weatherheight Regardless of the comic itself, is anyone else having issues with the site really slowing down and being all choppy and rubber bandy? This is the only site on which this has been happening for a few days and I visit several Discus sites each day. Or does the universe just hate me? Mujaki Just an FYI, I was catching up through the archives recently, and occasionally the imbedded video advertisements would auto-play with audio, even though the comment sections were hidden. SarahTheEntwife I love how honest Clevin is here, owning his emotions without demanding that Al fix them. It could have backfired, but it also definitely avoided fifteen panels of awkward NO I’M FINE HONEST when he was clearly bothered about something.