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GreatWyrmGold Not very enthusiastic, though. Very punch-clock-supervillain. McFrugal Well the second try worked, at least. He’s still got it! A little bit of it! Giacomo Bandini Have you noticed? He mentioned the phone Clevin left behind, because it’s physically possible that Patrick had find it and unlock it. Like the whole monologue of last page, everything he said could be concluded by simple general reasoning. He is careful to provide an alternate interpretation to his insight, to not leave any prove of his telepathy. Gotham “How did you manage to unlock my phone?!” “Alison le–” “Are you a /mindreader/?!” “…” “No wait this is silly I have TouchID. …WAIT A SECOND. Are you a /thumbshifter/?!” Lisa Izo Okay… I sort of have to grudgingly applaud Patrick on his evil-ness, even if he directed it at the most lovable corgi-like individual in the comic, Clevin. Zac Caslar It has a kind of a laudable diabolic efficiency. Lisa Izo I mean the guy is barely conscious and suffering from a massive head wound, high levels of alcohol in his system, and who knows what sort of psychic overload problems…. and he manages to still be able to send Clevin running as a guilt-ridden wreck (Clevin, the person who has literally nothing to feel guilty about of all the people in this comic) for his emotional wellbeing within a few sentences. And he can cap it off with a ‘muahahaha’ like a boss. Double points to Molly and Brennan for using the correct spelling of an evil laugh, rather than a psychotic laugh. So many forget the Mua at the beginning. I blame the schools nowadays ignoring the fundamentals. Weatherheight I upvote this for the phrase “most lovable corgi-like individual”. Lisa Izo Well… he does, doesnt he? I mean… I look at him and want to just pet his head and say what a cute widdle boy he is, oh yes he is. You’re a good little pasta making boy, arent you? Yes you are! Oh yes you are! Weatherheight And I can visualize Clevin bouncing up and down in place and with a gleeful expression on his face, as well. Rell He really just can’t help himself, can he? Weatherheight In both cases… I know, right? Olivier Faure That first panel is strangely hilarious, compared to the somewhat bleak scene it punctuates. (also, if Clevin’s worst issue is that he feels insecure in his relationship with Allison, then their relationship is still the best that happened to her, ever) Gotham I’m not sure, but my argument is weak considering we saw so little of their life during the relationship. I’ve got this nagging impression all of these are hints that Alison considers Clevin pretty much as granted and it’s not doing good either for him or for her. shink Still makes it one of the best things to happen to her, if not him. If you’re right though the break up is going to be really bad for her most likely. Gotham It may not appear to even them, but I disagree entirely. The last thing she needs is for someone who idolizes her no matter her faults. The last thing he needs is someone who will never love him more than for the constant, unwavering devotion he has for her. Olivier Faure Meh. It’s not perfect, but it’s also way above “the last thing they need”. It’s an okay relationship, just not long term. Gotham Curses! My use of an hyperbola was revealed. No but seriously, it’s dramatically fitting. At her lowest, Alison goes for something cheap and easy that doesn’t ask her any effort. Conversely, at his best, really (I mean what we saw before was him crushing it on the music floor and his attempt to get over Alison) he gets the relationship he wanted for years and the immense burden coming with it, crushing his already timid self-assurance with doubts about being enough for her. No, it’s not indeed “the last thing they need”. Neither of them are a hungry pack of plague-caring bears for the other. But I don’t think it’s the kind of relationship that ends either well or even just okay. For one thing it’s not very narratively interesting to have this relationship contextualize nothing about the themes of the webcomic and just be there for funsies. But how do you figure them fighting? Olivier Faure I can’t picture Clevin getting in a fight. He’s such a puppy; his answer to Patrick trying to crush him is to look awkward, then run away in shame. I’d argue that narratively, it could refreshing to see them as a “meh” couple, after the “bad boy crush” and “we were soulmates but it turns out your ideology is Worse Than Hitler” relationships we saw this far. Gotham I wanted Max to be nothing more than “Alison’s boyfriend, remote from her adventures and just there because sometimes people have boyfriends and that’s not necessarily a recipe for thematic narrative progress and he’s mentioned from time to time but only slightly”. It would have been a fun trope subversion. That was of course, not what happened, and seeing how things are going, Clevin definitely won’t be either. Happyroach My question is, why is this Allison’s fault? Why does she have to take responsibility for his emotional state? Seriously, that sounds like the usual BS emotional labor that women are expected to do in a relationship. Lisa Izo Well it’s not Alison’s fault about Clevin’s emotional state, but it is her fault that she left him alone with someone that she knew is an expert at manipulating people’s emotional states. 🙂 Nightsbridge Social savvy is not her biodynamic power. I imagine she was thinking more about explaining things to Feral in a way that wouldn’t let shit hit the fan, figured it’d be best to leave someone watching the overwhelmed telepath and made a bet that Patrick would either be too messed up or respectable to her boyfriend to leave well enough along for five minutes. Lisa Izo “Social savvy is not her biodynamic power.” Pretty sure one doesn’t need a power to not put a hen in the same room as the fox. 🙂 It’s not like common sense is a superpower. “I imagine she was thinking more about explaining things to Feral in a way that wouldn’t let shit hit the fan” Okay that’s a reasonable answer :). She still has some fault for letting it happen though. But what you said there about how she was betting on the idea that Patrick is too out of it to harm Clevin was an acceptable risk in her mind. Alison doesn’t always think well under pressure unless it’s in a physical fight (odd for a superhero). Arkone Axon https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d8/a8/22/d8a822e3fcd02ed779f611becf9e9bc2.jpg Lisa Izo Okay not to be awkward, but I sort of love you for that post. Arkone Axon Always good to be loved. ^.^ shink Social savvy might not be her biodynamic power, but she still screwed up here. She decided that putting Clevin near Patrick was the expediently useful thing to do, and got a fairly predictable result. Hindsight 20/20 and all that, but at the end of the day your SO’s hurt feelings are your problem (or will be), and bearing indirect responsibility for having hurt them is something that Clevin could easily get mad over with a fair amount of justification (making it Alison’s problem). Lisa Izo Preaching to the choir, shink :). It’s sort of my mantra to say, in many situations: “Alison is not a bright person.” Jared Rosenberg So much for that theory. Poor Alison, being a titular protagonist is hard work! Hina Sestuko Because we are all in this together? Lisa Izo “We’re born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we’re not alone.” – Orson Welles Gotham Uh, taking responsibility of each other’s emotional state is the point of a relationship though? She doesn’t /have/ to give a damn but if it’s wreaking Clevin’s sense of self then his consent to endure it is to be questioned. Arkone Axon Actually, you ARE expected to take responsibility for your partner’s emotional state. Notice the absence of gender-specific pronouns there. Love: the emotional state where the happiness and welfare of the target of one’s affections is important to oneself. In other words, if you love someone, you care about their happiness. If they’re sad, you want to comfort them. If they’re lonely, you want to spend time with them. If they’re angry you want to find out what’s upsetting them. If they’re in pain you want to comfort them. If you take umbrage at the very idea of focusing on the emotional state of others, then you’re not a very good romantic prospect. One of the most romantic lines I ever encountered was in Lois Bujold’s book “Lady Cordelia’s Honor,” when the titular character summed up her feelings for her future spouse. “When he’s cut, I bleed.” Lisa Izo “One of the most romantic lines I ever encountered was in Lois Bujold’s book “Lady Cordelia’s Honor,” when the titular character summed up her feelings for her future spouse. “When he’s cut, I bleed.”” Sounds more like Tomax and Xamot 🙂 (yes I could have joked about the corsican brothers, but GI Joe is more of a pop culture reference for people who grew up in the 80s and 90s). Arkone Axon Remember: Incest is all fucking relative. Lisa Izo Remember how I said I think I might love you after the deadpool common sense is tingling post? Yeah um….. sorry, the romance is over because of THAT wordplay pun 🙂 Arkone Axon Time to go find alcohol and drown the sorrows of a broken heart! Pros: I’m literally about to go to a Rosh Hoshanah party. Plenty of booze there. Cons: I’m a teetotaler. Damn… I’ll smother them instead, with lots of good food. Lisa Izo Shanah Tovah. Happy Rosh Hashannah. spriteless I wonder what Clev was thinking in that first panel, as he brushed off Pat attacking the core of his being? Guess that’s between him and Pat! Shjade Apparently, it was “At least I still have pictures of Alison on my phone.” masterofbones lol Markus In the last panel is Pat faking being more hurt than he is because only Clevin saw up and talking? Gotham He’s trying to cut down on the world domination scheming but you can’t just stop right then and now, the withdrawal is intense! His doctor allowed him two tiny evil schemes a week for now but he’s reducing. Weatherheight “Take two cheap shots and call me in the morning.” juleslt That looked more like throwing his head up in laughter to me: “Mua-ha-ha-ha” Arkone Axon …I’m actually disappointed in this page. It reminds me of Alison’s disastrous last date with Max. It feels as if Clevin was made to fail on purpose, just to keep the plot going along the rails intended. Max: “I’m going to start spouting Objectivist crap to someone whose beliefs are pretty much the opposite of that, without even noticing how uncomfortable I’m making her, in an apparent 180 of my previous behavior.” Clevin: “I’m going to listen to someone I just met spout a bunch of philosophical technobabble that should have blunted any emotional impact by the sheer confusion and effort of trying to decipher his esoteric polysyllables into something more easily comprehended, and immediately go run away with my mind broken.” This is as bad as the way guards in fiction are always depicted as being woefully incompetent at their jobs. masterofbones As Patrick mentioned earlier, he’d have to be pretty stupid to fail to freak someone out after seeing every single one of their insecurities. Pretty much everyone has mental weakpoints, and to Patrick they all have big neon signs pointing to them. Arkone Axon Yes, but… this was not a very impressive display on Patrick’s part. It’s like watching a fight scene where William Shatner’s Kirk beats up some of the mooks in a Batman film. No athleticism, no technique… it works okay when Shatner’s going up against a guy in a big green lizard costume, but not so much when it’s a big muscular guy who is used to taking punches from a heavily muscled vigilante. I can see Patrick breaking people… but not like this. This was too feeble a display on Patrick’s part, and Clevin seems to have caved way too easily. masterofbones That part might just be an issue of writing constraints. Its generally going to be difficult to show Patrick breaking someone down over a couple of panels, and I think what we have seen is supposed to be symbolic of a much longer conversation. Alternatively, Clevin is just very insecure on this topic in particular, feeling that he is a fake just moments from being outed. Arkone Axon Perhaps. But like I’ve said elsewhere, the real mental beatdowns don’t require lengthy sermons. The nastiest psychic assaults are short, direct, and go right for those weak spots. …Suddenly I’m picturing Patrick trying this stuff on the Tick. Only to have the Tick constantly falling asleep in midlecture. And then trying it on Arthur, only to have Arthur scream, “okay! You’ve read the cliffnotes on nihilism and psychology! You are not the scariest thing I’ve ever met, you’re not the scariest thing I’ve met this week! Our archnemesis is the Terror, and I once had to fend off a time travelling mongol in my kitchen with an egg beater!” masterofbones Really? I would be pretty surprised if many people could be caused to run away crying from a short outburst. Arkone Axon Depends on what’s being said. Certain words, certain statements, certain topics, are guaranteed to cut to the quick. Here’s a scene from an classic cinematic masterpiece, where the protagonist is told three words and then needs considerable comfort and support from his friend: https://youtu.be/_yfThrHJpkQ?t=86 (and it’s not just that she used racist profanity, it’s that he was approaching her to be friendly, having taken the job of Sheriff and risking his life to protect her and her friends and family… and this is how she treated him in response) Kid Chaos I think you’ve got your actors mixed up; you’re thinking of the Adam West-era “Batman”, or Shatner in “Star Trek: TOS”. But in either case, yeah, pretty good metaphor. 😎 Arkone Axon No, I’m deliberately describing a crossover. Imaging William Shatner’s James T. Kirk being cast in a Batman film – particularly one of the more recent Christopher Nolan films. Picture Kirk jumping off a table and then trying to do a double axe handle on one of Ras Al’gul’s ninjas, or even one of the crime syndicate’s regular mooks. :p (of course, for real comedic value, imagine Christian Bale’s version of Batman running around the Enterprise, trying to growl and punch and enhanced-interrogate everybody. “So… report, ensign.” “Yes, Captain. We caught him on aft deck, putting the Klingon Ambassador in some kind of joint lock. So we stunned him with our phasers and now he’s trying to pick the locks in the brig.” “…We don’t have locks in the brig.” “No, sir. It’s rather amusing, watching him try to pick the lock on a force field. It’s not as if we have panels inside the cells to let inmates access the ship’s systems.” “Well, THAT’S good news. But… are we at war with the Klingons again?” “No, sir. The Klingons actually thought it was a real hoot. The Ambassador wants to know if this guy does parties.” ) Kid Chaos Oh, now that sounds like fun! 😎 Walter I don’t think he is ‘failing’, at all. Patrick could drive anyone off, dude reads minds. Zorae42 I don’t think he was upset by Patrick’s monologue. He just looked away uncomfortably (like he didn’t know what to make of it) and Patrick went “Tch” like he didn’t get the breakdown he expected. So he went for something personal and pointed out Clevin’s insecurities. And that actually freaked him out/upset him so (instead of throwing something at him in anger) he left to go deal with it. He did rather well in my opinion, considering Patrick was trying to push his buttons. Arkone Axon I hope so. Because… this was not a very impressive display, as far as mind-breaking monologues go. Rando Womp womp, turns out Clevin views Alison as a trophy GF. Gotham All the while Alison views Clevin as comfort food. They are so doomed. masterofbones Most people are happy to talk about the coolest aspects of their life. Dating the most famous superhero in the world is hard to top. Rando Showing off pictures of your GF to people “you barely consider friends” to impress them, is skeezy behavior that typically implies you view them as nothing more than an object. Stephanie It’s not one hundred percent flawlessly saintlike behavior. It also doesn’t mean he only sees Alison as an object. You can sincerely care about someone and get some amount of selfish validation from people knowing they’re with you. Your interpretation only works if we basically ignore every positive thing Clevin has ever said or done in the context of this relationship, and define it solely by the most uncharitable description Patrick could muster of this one selfish thing. Hell, I’m not even invested in this pairing or Clevin as a character, but the lengths you’re going to demonize this dude are silly. Gotham I’m sorry, are you the most ethical person on earth because you put up a pretty high bar here. I consider myself a good person (one of the best I know, really) and I showed off how cute my cats are so people would think I was a cool girl with adorable cats. I am skeezy toward my cats? I mean, by your standards, every person who has a Facebook profile picture of themselves and their SO is at least some degree of skeezy. Stephanie You can only be a good person if you put a bag on your SO’s head whenever you go out together Weatherheight All cats are attention whores. The cats love it when you show them off. 😀 Gotham Oh my God, I am an enabler. Stephanie Eh. I don’t think that’s what we learned about him on this page. It’s just the most uncharitable possible interpretation of what we learned about him on this page. Bauke FYI: Rando doesn’t like Clevin. At all. So yeah, he’s going to interpret anything he learns about him in the worst possible way. Now, my more charitable interpretation of Clevin having photos of Allison on his phone is that he probably has been accused of lying about dating her, or maybe he just likes to show people his gorgeous girlfriend. Like most people would. Rando He wouldn’t have fled the apartment with barely a word to Al were it not true. Bauke He’s embarrased about it, sure. Stephanie No one’s denying that it’s true that he kept the pictures to impress people with. That doesn’t mean he sees Alison as a “trophy GF.” There’s a huge difference between getting an ego boost out of people knowing you’re dating an amazing person, and seeing that person only as a source of such ego boosts. Clevin can genuinely love and care about Alison as a human being and, at the same time, get an ego boost from showing off their relationship to his acquaintances. These things aren’t mutually exclusive. Stephanie My charitable interpretation is similar. I think he probably does get an ego boost out of proving that a famous ex-superheroine is dating him. And at the same time he’s probably aware that he’s keeping those pictures for ego-boost reasons and is embarrassed about that. And I think both of those are pretty normal, human feelings to have. Some guy I’m halfway in between. I don’t think Clevin would have done it the way Patrick said intentionally, but having it spelled out for him the way he did, Clevin realized that he was doing it exactly that way for exactly that reason. Stephanie Oh, that’s a great interpretation! I think you’re probably right. People often don’t even like to admit to themselves that they have selfish motives for doing things. I bet Clevin is more embarrassed about being confronted with this himself than he is about the possibility that Patrick will tell Alison. Weatherheight If we assume Clevin’s phone security is active and robust, then we run into several other things Clevin can associate here beyond mere embarrassment (although shame / embarrassment is by far the most logical interpretation). a) Holy crap! My phone isn’t secure! what else did he he get into? ( I know folks like this – they are kind of fun to mess with..) b) No way he got into my phone! Wait, he’s a friend of Alison’s! Does this guy have powers? Did he just do something to me because I didn’t feel that way before? I gotta get away from him! And that’s not even thinking about it much. Gotham Another one would be “wait a second, they were both there, my phone was there, I left Alison access to my phone because I trust her not to snuff around… wait, did she unlock it and then /gave/ it to him? …would Alison do that? I mean, she seems comfortable enough to let him sleep in her bed and clothes. Maybe he needed to make a phone call and mine was the closest and he snuffed around when she wasn’t looking. Who’s this jerk?! What is he to her?” and the like. Weatherheight “Did Alison betray my confidence to this guy? Does that mean she trusts him more than me? Did she lie to me about their relationship? Is he an “ex”? Is he a “still”? Didn’t even go there. Nice. Rando Yeah, but combine it with what we have learned about him previously, and the fact he fled from the apartment after being told Patrick knows and it seems very plausible. Stephanie Or he fled from the apartment because he’s humiliated. Patrick called him out on something very embarrassing. That doesn’t have to mean that his feelings for Alison are a sham. It’s very normal for humans to do harmless but embarrassing things to boost our egos. Gotham I don’t see how that’s embarrassing? He can always tell he’s just very proud of her, and it’s got totally nothing to do with him. That’d be a lie, and it’s generally not super great to idolize your significant other, but nothing that would warrant storming off in shame. Stephanie I think most people find it embarrassing to be called out on doing things boost their own egos, however harmless. There’s a social norm to be humble and let your successes speak for themselves. If I were in Clevin’s position, I would be embarrassed. I also don’t think Clevin is the type to lie to Alison to save face, if Patrick tells her something he knows is true about himself. Gotham I would be very hard-pressed to believe Clevin himself thinks in such terms. People justify their own bad behavior constantly, it would be very unrealistic to have him know he’s doing something wrong when it’s just saying “hey! I have a cute gf” to people. Stephanie He probably didn’t see anything wrong about it before. And there isn’t really anything “wrong” about it. It’s just that he had a selfish motive–a very normal, harmless, human motive, just also a selfish one–and he probably had been mentally convincing himself otherwise until Patrick confronted him with the truth. I really don’t see anything at all unrealistic about a person doing something, having someone call them out on having a self-serving motive for doing that thing, and becoming extremely embarrassed. That’s completely normal. It happens all the time. Some people would react by getting defensive, Clevin reacted by becoming ashamed and running away. Gotham Then, as I said elsewhere, I don’t believe anybody would be self-sabotaging enough to do the /exact thing/ that would entice Alison to think it was true. It makes him looks much more guilty than he /actually/ is. Let’s give Clevin some credit, I mean damn. Stephanie Who says this is about Alison? Don’t you think it would be embarrassing for Clevin just to have someone articulate his selfish motives to his face? And also, why do you think it would be giving Clevin “credit” to assume that he’d want to deceive Alison? Has he ever come across as a deceitful kind of character? Why on Earth would his priority be to convince Alison that the truth Patrick confronted him with wasn’t actually true? Beroli Articulate them in the nastiest possible way, which Patrick knew by mind reading would be most hurtful to Clevin, yet. Gotham Not deceive, just not implicate himself even more. Alison is going to believe there is some shady shit on his phone if he blew off like this when confronted about it. Midway through Patrick sentence saying “Does Alison know there are pictures of her on your phone…” I got /really/ concerned this was about to get /terrible/. It turned out it was just normal pictures of her to show off. Thank God. But what will Alison believe now that he ran off as if he had sleazy pictures of her to delete asap? Stephanie You’re proposing that Clevin, of all people, would intentionally put on an act to manipulate Alison. That he’d be thinking to himself, “I should display the emotional reaction that casts me in the most favorable possible light.” That doesn’t sound like Clevin to me. I don’t know where you get the idea that he would think that Alison would think he had sleazy pictures of her. I don’t think she even heard what Patrick said. Gotham What do you figure he would think would happen? That she wouldn’t ask Patrick what happened? That /he/ would lie to her in return? That she wouldn’t connect the dots afterward? And, for the third time now, it’s not about putting on an act, it’s just not doing THE thing that makes him look a thousand times more guilty. How about “hey honey, I’m spent, you seem to be done talking out the window, can I leave him to you? I’ll see you tomorrow.” Stephanie Again, why do you think that’s where his mind would immediately go? Why are you convinced that his first thought should have been how he could avoid looking guilty to Alison? Why can’t he just have an emotional reaction to the thing Patrick said to him specifically for the purpose of exploiting his deepest vulnerabilities to elicit an emotional reaction? Gotham Because you said it yourself, if him fleeing is motivated by guilt it just doesn’t add up that he would stop thinking about the consequences of his reaction in how they specifically pertain to apparent guilt. If the webcomic is really going that road then fiiine, but I’ll maintain it’s discrediting Clevin’s ability to act as a coherent person who can keep two ideas at once in his mind. I’m not trying to downplay his potential vulnerability, I’d just be annoyed if the webcomic equates emotional vulnerability with inability to consider consequences. Stephanie I think it’s shame, not guilt. He’s ashamed to have had his selfish motives articulated. If keeping Alison from being upset at him were his priority, he would have stayed. But he didn’t, so we know that’s not his priority. I think you’re seeing an inconsistency because you’re starting from the assumption that Clevin is thinking and feeling certain things, and then saying “His actions aren’t consistent with that.” But it would make more sense to say, “Based on his actions, he’s probably thinking and feeling things consistent with those actions.” Gotham The inconsistency I’m seeing is with your own interpretation. (And really– shame, guilt, it’s the same problem) I’m personally not making assumptions about what’s happening with Clevin on this page because I find it all a bit perplexing and waiting for more context. Stephanie I think you must misunderstand my interpretation, then, because it’s not inconsistent with what he did. There would only be an inconsistency if I believed Clevin was most concerned with making sure Alison isn’t upset at him. I do not believe that that is what he’s most concerned with. Shame and guilt aren’t the same thing. They are related, they often co-occur, but they’re distinct emotions. Gotham I didn’t say they were, I said they led to the same problem. If he had to leave because of either he wouldn’t conveniently have it out of his mind when considering how leaving would make him look, in either case. Your interpretation is inconsistent with the improbability of that convenience. Stephanie I really don’t think it’s unrealistic for a person to have an emotional response and not immediately be thinking about how that emotional response makes them look. Have you never been in a situation where you reacted emotionally in the moment, and only later thought back on how your reaction looked to the people around you? Gotham I’m not saying I never let my emotions overtake me but in my experience (which haven’t solely consisted of myself) when it’s not anger, pride and the like, when it’s about self-doubt and insecurities it’s always made people /more/ concerned about how they appeared to others in these moments of vulnerability. It’s not a recipe to always do “the right thing” whatever that means in response of course, it’s often not, but… not caring? I’m sorry, but it doesn’t seem right to me. Stephanie Then why do you think he ran out? Gotham I’m really curious. It could be that clearly Patrick knows more than a normal person should and he remembers that one time his interaction with a super resulted in months in a hospital. I find it interesting that despite the most amazing of facial confusion, he didn’t seem to mind being called out on his potential insecurities (his intelligence, another man in Alison’s bed)… until Alison herself was mentioned. It’s almost as if shame itself in general is not the problem, but that he constantly feels insecure about being unworthy of her (the episode in the street before they came home attests to that, and also how he kept having hopes for months/years despite no show of interest from her side). I guess it could be that Patrick telling him that makes him massively overreact to a, honestly, pretty tame “crime”, so that he doesn’t feel like the perfect boyfriend he thinks he ought to be… …and is leaving in a hurry because he think he would only mess things up with Alison if he interacts with her before he takes a few hours needlessly attuning how he thinks he /has to/ act while he’s with her to make sure she keeps him as a boyfriend? In a sense, “how my God, he’s right, I’m not respecting her enough [note: he’s “respecting” her way too much] I need to leave before I do things wrong” And in this case, I guess I could see how “feeling like saying one wrong thing could break it all” would prime over “how it looks to storm off like this” I’m making it all way too complicated aren’t I Stephanie I think that is a solid theory, and I also think it boils down to him feeling shame. In your interpretation, it’s the shame of feeling like an inadequate partner. I can totally see him feeling that way. Gotham I guess. I figure I just needed to twist it thrice on its head to find a logical reason why he would need to leave right now, one that’s certainly wrong. Conversely, it could be him just out to reunite all the people he showed a picture of Alison to so that he can bring them here at once and say SO EVERYONE THIS IS MY GIRLFRIEND I VALUE HER AS A PERSON IMMENSELY HENCE WHY I AM NOT MERELY MAKING A SHALLOW DISPLAY OF HER NAME AND APPARENCE PLEASE SPEND A REQUISITE FEW HOURS LEARNING HOW WONDERFUL SHE IS REGARDLESS OF HER STATUS IN FACT OH AHAH IS SHE FORMER SUPERHERO MEGA-GIRL SEEMS I HAD INDEED FORGOTTEN THAT FACT IN THE FACE OF HOW WHOLESOME OF A FULLY FLEDGED PERSON SHE IS NOW IF YOU’LL EXCUSE ME I’M GOING TO CHANGE INTO ONE OF MY NEW YORK FAMOUS DORKY CLOTHES WE WILL ALL KINDLY LAUGH AT BECAUSE NONE OF THIS IS FOR MY OWN GAIN I MEAN WHY WHEN WHO WHO WOULD EVEN THINK THAT Stephanie See, I think he’s more the type to go feel terrible about himself for a few hours and then talk it out with Alison. Like, “I’ve been doing this thing that I realize now was selfish, I was basically using you as a prop to impress people, I’m sorry.” I don’t think he’s going to double down on insisting he never had any selfish motives. Gotham Wouldn’t someone feeling such an unwarranted urge to apologize (I still think none of what he did deserves that much overreaction) try to do it right away, though? Stephanie Some people need time to process when they suffer an emotional critical hit like that. Gotham So an irrational overreaction to a tame crime (I mean, I don’t like either “irrational” and “overreaction” but let’s agree that the reaction of fleeing on the spot when challenged is not practical, at least), but a rational reaction, conscious of his own needs? Instead of, in his overreaction, going the extra extra mile and doing even worse by trying to resolve it all right now before it’s too late? It’s just weird. Stephanie I mean, an irrational overreaction because he hasn’t processed yet. Not that he’s thinking to himself “I need to go process this.” Gotham So, I ran a thousand analogies in my head to try and make sense of why exactly that doesn’t feel right and I think it’s mostly the fact that it’s not Alison confronting him. I can surmise a scenario where a cheater (since they would need to be the one “at fault”) is caught in the act and flees instead of trying to defend themselves because the situation is too difficult to bear emotionally… but not one where another party threatens the cheater to reveal it all to their lover, thereby storming off in a hot mess of guilt and shame and stress, making it obvious to the lover that the offense is real. Somehow this is too convenient for me. In a sense I guess I can’t accept that Clevin would prioritize his mental health over his relationship (in his perspective, because it’s definitely not actually at risk) were it not for another factor? Even in an irrational overreaction. It’s just so silly to have a fight-or-flight response so broken it actually impedes your survival. Stephanie I think everyone has vulnerabilities that, when targeted, lead them to act irrationally. We’re dealing with a situation where a dude straight up read his mind and then said the exact thing that he knew would freak him out this much. Gotham Do you at least understand why it sounds weird to me that when Patrick says “I know you are terrified of walking alone outside at night”, Clevin overreacts by fleeing in shame of being called out… alone outside at night Why yes, I am the best at terrible analogies Stephanie I see it more like Patrick said “I know you did something you’re ashamed of” and Clevin reacted by hastily getting away from the guy who was targeting his deepest insecurities and making him feel like shit. Gotham Well Patrick you’ve got to remember Clevin’s girlfriend is also the one who fell into his arms as a rebound because he was and would always be the one who would never ask the slightest effort on her part, a situation she intends to take advantage of, and didn’t mention his emotional support during her acknowledgments, so it would follow that he’s looking for validation wherever else he can. Darkoneko Hellsing Dude, that was low. Abel Undercity Is it permissible to punch a sick person? Asking for a fictional friend. Some guy Sure it is. It’s even easier, they can’t defend themselves as much. Some guy Clevin confirmed for secret scumbag. masterofbones Since when is bragging about your awesome girlfriend a “scumbag” thing to do? Bakkonator It’s kind of low if you are using her notoriety to elevate your own. It is a sign of a fragile ego. Bauke Why do people jump to this conclusion? If that gets confirmed, sure. Maybe Clevin feels bad about because someone (hypothetical situation) accused him of lying about dating a superhero and then he had a picture to back it up. And now he’s been accused of “bragging”. Patrick is a dick, and he likes making people miserable. Rando Remember when Clevin was complaining about not being publicly thanked for his actions at an unrelated event? Now we are seeing that he has been bragging about his relationship to Megagirl to basically random people. That’s why people are “jumping” to the conclusion. Patrick may like being a dick, but he may also just see that Clevin is kind of using her for her status, and is trying to drive him away because he cares about her. Not a good way of going about doing it, but we already know Patrick isn’t really the best of people either. masterofbones Correction: Remember when clevin was mildly bothered by being dropped from the list of people who “emotionally supported” alison, but didn’t say anything until she prodded and pried her way into a confession from him? Slightly different from how you are framing the situation Rando You mean when he passively aggressively sputtered through the conversation until she brought it up, due to him acting weirdly. Its really not. Arkone Axon I know passive-aggressive. Clevin was not passive-aggressive. Passive-aggressiveness is when you selfishly inflict weaponized guilt in order to get what you want. Cleven was just embarrassed and uncomfortable, and stammering because he was having trouble picking the right words to express himself. When Clevin starts adopting the Jewish Mother’s “Basic Expression” (sort of like the expression you see in a laxative advertisement, on the face of someone suffering from extreme constipation. Usually coupled with wistful sighs and murmurs of “nothing… nothing’s wrong…”), then I’ll believe he’s being passive-aggressive. masterofbones 1. I’m not sure why being insecure equates to being a scumbag 2. It was never said that that was what Clevin was doing 3. I don’t really see where the harm is in enjoying the benefits of being in a relationship with a famous person. Maybe if it was causing Alison issues because of it, but otherwise it seems like a harmless perk to the relationship 4. Im not sure what the connection between “uses someone else’s fame to become more famous” and “fragile ego” comes from. They seem kinda unrelated IMO. — TL:DR – I disagree with every single aspect of your comment Rando > 3. I don’t really see where the harm is in enjoying the benefits of being in a relationship with a famous person. Because you aren’t treating them as a person, you are treating them as a trophy. If you are dating a famous person and go to them directly for help, that is fine. Using them as a namedrop is not. masterofbones Where is the harm? You claim harm, but you do nothing to back up the assertion. I don’t really care about your buzzwords, I want to hear the *actual harm* this action causes. 21stCenturyPeon Agreed. “So Clevin, I heard you’ve a new lady friend?” “I Sure do. Alison Green – she’s swell.” “That name sounds famil – wait, Megagirl? You never are!” *Clevin whips phone out* Stephanie This seems less like a “secret scumbag” thing to do, and more like a normal embarrassing thing to do. Some guy I don’t think he’s intentionally a scumbag, he’s just blundered into some sketchy behavior. Just like I don’t think you intentionally stole my name, but here we are >:( Thoughts I feel like Clevin might be catching some undue flack. I interpreted the previous and this page to show Patrick’s consistency in trying to push people away with grand, sweeping “hard truths” invoking thoughts and philosophy and frankly, just kind of being as dramatic as possible in his pseudo cynical intelligence. When Clevin doesn’t particularly react the way he wants, evidenced by a ‘tch’, he mentions the phone, which Clevin immediately jumps on. It kind of highlights how different their worlds are – in the end, he is more concerned about Alison finding out a source of (understandable) insecurity in how he sees their relationship. They’ve communicated and been open about that in the past, but it’s still something he is reluctant to share. The most we know about Clevin in this scene is that he is shaken by the fact someone knows about pictures on his phone. We cannot yet interpret it to imply any sort of malicious intent or reason. That, and it would be rather odd for Clevin to suddenly be “Joke’s on you, you’re brag fodder” after all the depiction of watching their relationship grow and healthy communication. Just my thoughts, anyway – to each their own perception! Thoughts Further clarification: We cannot yet interpret it to imply any sort of personal reasoning that we are not exposed to as an audience based on our lack of insight into his thoughts – we have only a context, and even contexts can be misinterpreted by a misguided pattern of thought going in. Either way, I see Clevin’s actions as almost an endearing, pure and honest simplicity – not a response to having an evil plan revealed or a deeper fear of it. Speaking of evil, now that I see the last panel again, it occurs to me Patrick, though still weak, is taking silly pleasure and pride in invoking that response – even if it is not by his usual means. Thus the weak Muahahaha he MUST do even as he lies, nearly completely immobilized. It is its own sense of pure simple pleasure, for him. Gotham Why do you figure him leaving, then? The best course of action in the face of such a “threat” would be to deny it’s for the reasons Patrick highlighted (and instead, like, that he’s just telling people about his relationship status through pictorial means, which is not a crime) I mean, if you’re right, why would he leave Alison to ask “wtf happened” to Patrick and him telling exactly the same thing? Clevin fleeing only further proves Patrick would be on point. And Clevin isn’t that stupid. (And he doesn’t know Patrick can read minds) Tylikcat I do think the whole lead-up may well have unsettled him. (I don’t know if that was intentional on Patrick’s part, I don’t know if Patrick is together enough for that kind of intentional.) Being unsettled enough, his mild guilt over showing off his Alison pics could have been pretty amplified. That happens. Gotham I cannot subscribe to the theory that his flight response is so single-minded he doesn’t realize he’s making himself a thousand times more guilty when Patrick tells the exact same thing to Alison which will /definitely/ happen now that and especially because she saw him storm off Tylikcat And yet, Clevin does seem to feel somewhat alienated from Alison’s BD friends, and is (probably accurately) likely perceiving the situation as not really a safe place for him. Throw in some three parts unsettledness and one or two of guilt, and there he goes. (Mind you, I do expect that we’re going to have to find out exactly what buttons Patrick was pushing for this to make sense later, I just have some faith that we will.) David Gillon Clevin’s nice, Patrick’s interesting, that’s a world of difference. Tylikcat And I’m in my forties. I may be well past my interest in brooding types (and really want people to have at least made some strides at getting themselves together?) but bright faced naifs? It cannot be. Lisa Izo We shouldn’t assume Clevin is not that stupid. Clevin could be quite stupid. All we know for sure is he’s a nice, albeit possibly insecure about the relationship, pretty timid guy. But that doesn’t mean he can’t be stupid also. Clevin’s been pretty dumb (or at least very insecure) when it comes to responding to other potential ‘suitors’ to Alison. He got cowed by Max as well, and I don’t think Max was even trying to intentionally rattle Clevin, unlike Patrick who was making a concerted effort to rattle him. Gotham Your example doesn’t work but fine let’s keep that potential avenue open. Lisa Izo Sort of does work really. I was just trying to avoid words like ‘alpha male’ and ‘beta male’ in the example I was giving. But it’s good as an example of humans being essentially pack persistence hunters, probably easier if I do use those terms (ignore Adam Ruins Everything episodes for this since that episode was god-awfully stupid). Clevin is a nice, cute, poofy guy who isn’t aggressive at all and is almost annoyingly apologetic, as well as not in the least bit intimidating (ie, he’s corgi-like) – and for this example, we’ll describe him as a ‘beta male.’ People like Max and Patrick are very take-charge, socially aggressive men who dominate a conversation – so lets describe them as ‘alpha males.’ In Max’s brief but passive confrontation with Clevin, he humiliated him without even trying by talking about how dinner and a movie is a lame attempt at a date, although he did not know that Clevin had just tried that unsuccessfully with Alison. This caused him to shy away while Max swooped in and asked her out more suavely, even with the handicap of having decidedly evil-looking cheekbones. Patrick, on the other hand, has in the past been able to manipulate Alison with his words every step of the way, including manipulating her into hating him, and yet she’s still taking care of him when he comes to her now in this state, and describing him to Feral in a rather positive way, rather than the truth (although that might be because it would implicate her as well). Any the FIRST time Patrick speaks to Clevin, he humiliates him verbally (on purpose, as opposed to Max’s incidental humiliating of Clevin), and then scares him with a deep dark secret of Clevin’s (even though it’s basically a harmless, understandable secret by normal people standards). So…. it’s conceivable that Clevin is, in fact, not particularly smart – at least when it comes to social interaction. Or he could just be easily intimidated. He’s obviously smart at certain things, like music, and he somehow manages to wear heart-shaped glasses without most people thinking he looks dumb (I guess that’s just me). You have to talk to Clevin in a very positive, happy way for him to be comfortable (like with Alison’s upbeat dad). Any confrontation and he shrinks back (even with Pintsize when he was clearly joking, until Brad let him know he was not being serious with the ‘toxic masculinity’ crack). When thetalk turned to Moonshadow, which would be something traumatic to Clevin, he shrank back there as well. When he was not mentioned in Alison’s speech, he felt small there also. Gotham Okay so yes, see– none of the things you’re mentioning are about the capacity to understand simple short term consequences like I was (always) talking about. Even when yourself have to do caveats about the words you’re using (“at least when it comes to social interaction”) it means that his intelligence / comprehension skill has in fact very little to do with what you’re talking about. So no, it sort of doesn’t. But coming back to what you are talking about because I see worrying signs here, you are forbidden from using bullshit terms like “alpha and beta males” ever. again. Even putting aside the fact that you really didn’t need to as you establish them to never use the terms again (instead using actually cogent and appropriate terms like “charisma” and “social skill”, “assertiveness”, “timidity”), these are bullshit and unscientific and rotten to the core with sexism, so off they go. Lysiuj Oh please Gotham that’s such a beta thing to say! 😉 Gotham I think the female of “beta cuck” is “feminazi” and I would request to be applied the adjectives of my gender thank you very much Lisa Izo “Even when yourself have to do caveats about the words you’re using (“at least when it comes to social interaction”) it means that his intelligence / comprehension skill has in fact very little to do with what you’re talking about.” There are many different types of intelligence. There’s a reason that even though Steve Wozniak was the technical genius at Apple, most people associate Apple with ‘visionary’ Steve Jobs instead. And I put caveats in because I prefer being correct. Life has caveats. “But coming back to what you are talking about because I see worrying signs here, you are forbidden from using bullshit terms like “alpha and beta males” ever. again. ” Honest and true, sir? I’m not permitted to use those terms? Being a taad authoritarian are we? Read my post. I even say why I WASNT using those terms at first. I was not using them in some sort of scientific way like in the study that Arkone mentions in his post. But when I said Alpha and Beta, you had an instinctual understanding of what people think of when they hear ‘alpha’ and what people think of when they hear ‘beta.’ When people hear ‘alpha’ – the descriptions that come to mind are ‘assertiveness, leadership, go-getter, confident.’ When people hear ‘beta’ the descriptions that come to mind are ‘meekness, timidity, follower, nervous, etc.’ One conjures images of something positive, while the other conjures up images of something negative…without having to each time make a LIST of those things. Also my post had absolutely nothing to do with sexism, or even science. It was literary short-hand. I swear, it gets me how people love to try to attack me every time I post anything, and misread it in the worst possible light. :/ Gotham In my experience, it turns out that the shorthand of using the commonly understood meanings of “alpha and beta males” actually takes more time due to the cost of the requisite sentences it takes afterward to establish that yes you are using those terms but you are not in fact a sexist scumbag. Really, “assertive”, “socially forward” versus “introverted”, “shy”… it’s not like any language lacks the appropriate descriptors for behaviors pertaining to social behavior, and people understand it just the same. No need to list things every time. (And why am I not surprised Arkone is linking garbage again) And you say that there are different types of intelligence and that’s exactly my point: Clevin’s people skills imply very little about his capacity to understand the consequences of his behavior, so when I said above that “he’s not stupid” about that, using his lack of natural charisma as a counterpoint is not super relevant. Lisa Izo “In my experience, it turns out that the shorthand of using the commonly understood meanings of “alpha and beta males” actually takes more time due to the cost of the requisite sentences it takes afterward to establish that yes you are using those terms but you are not in fact a sexist scumbag.” Or you could just read my posts instead of just read a couple of words in order to try some sort of ‘virtue signalling’ method of arguing. Reading comprehension goes a long way. Given how long my posts tend to be, exactly how much longer would you like them to become? Not only is it clear what I was saying by using the terms ‘alpha’ and ‘beta’ – I even prefaced it in the exact damned post previously, almost as if I had some sort of precognitive ability to know that people would read those words and try to use them to ignore the merits of the post. “Really, “assertive”, “socially forward” versus “introverted”, “shy”… it’s not like any language lacks the appropriate descriptors for behaviors pertaining to social behavior, and people understand it just the same. No need to list things every time.” Um… read my other posts. I’ve used those words repeatedly actually prior to that post. Just saying alpha/beta was a good shorthand so I don’t have to keep repeating a bunch of descriptions. You clearly know what I was actually meaning. I don’t have to actually defend what I was meaning. It doesn’t make an argument against my post stronger. Not to mention I wasn’t even saying anything particularly controversial this time. Hell, when I called Clevin a corgi, that seemed to go over quite well. Would you prefer corgi and pit bull, or would I get people railing against me saying how pitbulls are unfairly maligned? Clevin is a social intelligence level of a corgi. Max and Patrick are pit bulls. Or dobermans. Or whatever other type of aggressive take charge dog you’d like to use. Although using dogs… that’s almost like talking about ‘pack mentality’ again. “(And why am I not surprised Arkone is linking garbage again)” 1) cmon no ad hominem attacks. Arkone is usually really good on his arguments. What he linked is factually correct on its face when it comes to the SCIENTIFIC use of alpha and beta in respect to humans, but he’s just mis-applying it to what I said. Largely in the same way you did. 2) There’s literally not anything in this particular comic that should be that controversial to say that most people can’t agree with. Clevin’s not the type of person that gives off a leadership vibe. Max is. Patrick definitely is. Of the three, Clevin’s clearly the nicest person and the only person who doesn’t have multiple negative character faults that I can see… he’s just not the most ‘alpha’ person when it comes to leadership, and I am not saying alpha as a scientific experiment. I’m saying it so I don’t have to describe every description that comes to mind when a person says alpha or beta. “And you say that there are different types of intelligence and that’s exactly my point: Clevin’s people skills imply very little about his capacity to understand the consequences of his behavior, so when I said above that “he’s not stupid” about that, using his lack of natural charisma as a counterpoint is not super relevant.” It was relevant to me because you were using stupid in order to describe intelligence as it relates to picking up on social queues. Clevin misses big flashing signs there with how chipper he is to Patrick leading up to what just happened. 🙂 Gotham Oh come on. “Virtue signaling”? You’re doubling down on nonsensical trash after “alpha and beta males”? …and come to think of it weren’t you the one who was parroting wild claptrap about millennials? Are you for real? …Arkone is that you with another account because if not we have soulmates here (and he blocked me! He might never learn!) Lisa Izo You really have a problem with attacking terms while ignoring the message being explained to you. Although you are doing what is considered ‘virtue signalling’ yes. And now you’re virtual signalling by attacking my saying that you’re virtual signalling. That’s like… extra levels of meta-virtue signalling. How about, for a change, you actually debate on the topic, rather than blocking people or personal attacks and ad hominems? It would probably be a lot more productive. Not that anything I said about Clevin in the first place was worthy of being attacked in any way to begin with. And no, I’m not Arkone. Although I’m thinking that you believe that anyone who has a different opinion than you, or thinks you should not attack Arkone or other people with ad hominem attacks, is probably the same person. Unfortunately there is more than one person who has an opinion that is different than yours. Also not his soulmate. We disagree on stuff too. But at least he argues civilly and remains on the topic. Gotham Okay, here’s a lesson then. When you say “you my good Sir are virtue signaling!”, you are calling out the other for something they do that you pretend you do not thus making your argument more valuable. One might even say that by accusing the other and drawing the comparison between you and them… you are… signaling… your virtue. Yes, the fascists edgelords who invented the term on 4chan a few years ago didn’t give a damn about the /inherent incoherent hypocrisy/ that it’s always “virtue signaling” to call out “virtue signaling”, because their goal is to disrupt conversations, troll and overwhelm with bullshit. That’s the same kind of assholes who recently came out with “cuck” for instance—if you need another example of the ideology you’re standing with by using their tactics—and they are also mostly to blame for the perpetuation of “alpha and beta males” because it’s the model by which they grow their numbers, recruiting frustrated insecure white men by promising them their is an “alphaness” they can teach them to reach. All of this is the worst kind of wretch and I will never “debate” anyone using these tactics thereby approving their validity. It will always be intense, /vicious/ hostility toward this shit, and not for your benefit (so you can stop whining about productivity, but we’ll come back to you later) but for that of others reading and the whole comment section. So that it’s clear this trash isn’t welcome and will /never/ be tolerated. So what does that make you then? Well, you’re clearly not aware you’re doing this because you put your trash on your sleeve whereas the neonazis of 4chan know they need to be sneaky about it. Don’t feel bad for buying into their rhetoric one way or another who knows where on the Internet, their rhetoric is the worst but it’s immensely effective, and the most oblivious of us can often fall prey to it. Likewise, our buddy Arkone (which I haven’t blocked, he blocked /me/) fell prey to antifeminist rhetoric with an air of scientific legitimacy because it spoke to his unchecked internal misogyny and his childish understanding of skepticism. You fell prey to harmful discourse without a thematic core because I don’t know where you glean your nonsense on the web but you forget to watch your hands when you get home. But his are opinions, yours are just tactics and words you don’t understand the implications of. He’s much far gone, you seem to only need better people to trust. But I have little desire to help you if you’re not ready to help yourself first. That’ll come with time, either maturity or the crippling loneliness of having alienated everyone you had some esteem for. Call me selfish, but it’s not my job to salvage lost souls. Lisa Izo “Okay, here’s a lesson then.” Despite not asking for a lesson from you, and despite not thinking you’re someone qualified in any academic capacity to give me a lesson…. “When you say “you my good Sir are virtue signaling!”” Didn’t say that. Read my post again. You don’t seem to ever read what I say. You just focus on one or two buzzwords and run with that because it’s easier than actually engaging in critical thinking. You do ad hominem and strawman attacks rather than intellectual debate. I even go out of my way to explain the context in which I use these buzzwords, and you seem to gloss over it. “Yes, the fascists edgelords who invented the term on 4chan a few years ago didn’t give a damn about the /inherent incoherent hypocrisy/ that it’s always “virtue signaling” to call out “virtue signaling”, because their goal is to disrupt conversations, troll and overwhelm with bullshit.” Literally no idea what this has to do with me or my posts about Patrick, Max, and Clevin. You’re just aching for a fight so you can oppose the oh-so-scary Lisa Izo (as if I have any notoriety to begin with, I’m a random person on the interwebs) by using strawman positions and ad hominem attacks over a thread which was utterly harmless and inoffensive about how Clevin is meek and timid in most of his opinions regarding Alison and her circle, while Patrick and Max are assertive and/or aggressive in their opinions. God, so much easier to describe that as just saying ‘alpha’ and ‘beta.’ And now you’ll probably not read this post either and latch onto alpha/beta again. “That’s the same kind of assholes who recently came out with “cuck” for instance” I’ve literally never used that word. Not to mention I voted libertarian, not Trump. Pretty sure that the reason it’s used though is because the word that it’s slang for, cuckold, describes someone who is extremely meek and timid, although with sexual connotations. Probably the fact that it also rhymes with a swear word helps encourage the use of that word as a personal attack. “and they are also mostly to blame for the perpetuation of “alpha and beta males”” Actually alpha and beta are terms that have been used for a LONG time before the word ‘cuck’ (hate how that word sounds btw, just sounds sexually offensive to me). Alpha and Beta have even been used for centuries before the studies that Arkone mentioned, in referencing any group that operates on a pack mentality when hunting. Alpha and Beta did not start on 4chan. I’ve never even been on 4chan. To be honest I’m not entirely sure what 4chan is, except I’ve always assumed it’s like reddit or funnyjunk or instagram or /pol/ or webcomic forums – internet websites or chat boards. “they are also mostly to blame for the perpetuation of “alpha and beta males” because it’s the model by which they grow their numbers,” Read above. Alpha and Beta were used for centuries before 4chan. And even in modern times, it’s been used in Hollywood all over the place. Hell, it was used on Star Trek Voyager by the Hirogen (who are pack hunters as well), or by the Dominion when showing how the Vorta interact with the Gem Hadar (and how the Gem Hadar do their own internal hierarchies – although they say ‘First’ and ‘Second’ instead of Alpha and Beta). “All of this is the worst kind of wretch and I will never “debate” anyone using these tactics thereby approving their validity.” I’m guessing you’re not a big fan of Star Trek or White Wolf role playing games. Btw, apparently you will not ‘debate’ someone using those terms, but you will engage in ad hominem attacks. I think you’d get more respect from me and be more intellectually persuasive if you DID debate people with whom you disagree, while sticking on point of the topic being discussed, rather than what you’ve been doing. Even if I wouldn’t agree with you, I’d at least enjoy the debate. What you’re doing, though, is just the more verbose version of ‘screw you, you can’t say that.’ “It will always be intense, /vicious/ hostility toward this shit, and not for your benefit” And this is why I described what you were doing as being virtue signalling. Because you’re clearly not posting to discuss the OP. You’re just trying to fight in order to show others who engage in your same opinions that those who have different opinions are bad people. WHich is especially odd when I’m not even talking about anything offensive – I’m talking about Clevin being meek and Patrick and Max being… not weak. Again. Alpha and Beta just relate the description soooo much easier. “(so you can stop whining about productivity, but we’ll come back to you later)” 1) Wasn’t whining. You’re the only one who seems to be doing anything close to whining, if ANYONE was whining. Though I’m not trying to call you names. 2) When I write, I like when the discussion is productive, rather than whatever we’re talking about HERE. Which is totally unproductive. “but for that of others reading and the whole comment section. So that it’s clear this trash isn’t welcome and will /never/ be tolerated.” More strawmanning here and 1984 similarities here. Skipping. “So what does that make you then?” It makes me someone who talks consistently and logically without strawmanning, but gets roped into people like you arguing about buzzwords instead of the actual post. “Well, you’re clearly not aware you’re doing this because you put your trash on your sleeve whereas the neonazis of 4chan know they need to be sneaky about it.” I literally described what I maen by the words I use. You don’t seem to read it. But since you’re not debating, I guess you don’t need to read it. Well, at least you’re not calling the jewish, asian poster a neonazi. That’s something at least. Thanks? “Don’t feel bad for buying into their rhetoric one way or another who knows where on the Internet, their rhetoric is the worst but it’s immensely effective, and the most oblivious of us can often fall prey to it.” Actually I think the first time I ever heard ‘alpha’ and ‘beta’ was on Star Trek Voyager by the Hirogen. Oh I also think the terms were used in Supernatural for monsters, and on the TV show ‘Alphas.’ Havent ‘bought into’ anyone’s rhetoric. You seem to have bought into some rhetoric though to be getting into such a lather over words like alpha and beta. “Likewise, our buddy Arkone (which I haven’t blocked, he blocked /me/) fell prey to antifeminist rhetoric with an air of scientific legitimacy because it spoke to his unchecked internal misogyny and his childish understanding of skepticism.” I’ve yet to ever block anyone because I don’t care what people say about me as long as they arent actually threatening me, but if you just claim Arkone suffers from ‘internal misogyny’ (oh god if I wanted to latch onto a buzz word you’re using, I would probably latch onto that one), maybe he just didn’t see a point in talking to you. I wouldnt have done that though personally. I always talk to people with whom I disagree. It’s pretty much my entire job. And when I was in the DA’s office, my best friend was in the PD’s ofice. Although I id leave there to do intellectual property law, which doen’t usually have to deal with other people face-to-face. 🙂 That being said I’ve always found Arkone to be very respectful, even when we disagree (like about socialism as a viable political concept for the US). If you talk to him respectfully, he does the same. Same for a lot of other people – and not just people who agree with me. Loranna’s always respectful, Weatherheight’s always respectful, Kid Chaos’s always respectful, Stephanie’s been respectful (and we disagree about almost everything), etc. I’m amazed that this discussion is happening based on my post about Clevin being a beta mentality though. So much anger over something so innocent and meaningless. “You fell prey to harmful discourse without a thematic core because I don’t know where you glean your nonsense on the web but you forget to watch your hands when you get home. ” Star Trek. Lets go with Star Trek. Oh, and law. But here it’s closer to star trek. “But his are opinions, yours are just tactics and words you don’t understand the implications of. He’s much far gone, you seem to only need better people to trust.” I actually don’t use other people’s opinions as facts. Facts might be embedded IN people’s opinions though, and if they’re convincing enough, those facts will show through if they use logic instead of raw emotion or personal attacks. I use other people’s opinions as their opinions I trust myself. And if someone else debates me and is convincing, I might take some of their opinions and figure how they mesh with mine. When people strawman or use ad hominem attacks though, there’s no real facts within those opinions. And you’re not debating, as you’ve said. “But I have little desire to help you if you’re not ready to help yourself first.” Wow no offense but you’re really giving a 1984 INGSOC ‘thought police’ vibe right now. I’d say something more substantive but most of what you’ve said has had nothing to do with anything in the thread. “That’ll come with time, either maturity or the crippling loneliness of having alienated everyone you had some esteem for.” Most people whom I have ‘esteem’ for are people who don’t do what you’re trying to do, so I’m not worried there. And I’m friends with people who have different opinions than me but arent so arrogant and authoritarian about it. If they acted like you, I wouldn’t feel all that bad about if they don’t talk to me. Definitely wouldn’t feel lonely or alienated. Usually they seek me out for conversation because I’m not boring and I’m consistent. Not to toot my own horn. “Call me selfish,” I don’t call you selfish. I think you’re a bit arrogant and authoritarian though. “but it’s not my job to salvage lost souls.” My soul and myself are just fine where they are. Thank you. Does this mean you won’t bother to respond to me anymore with these long posts if you’re not going to try to save and convert me to the religion of Gotham? Appreciated. My computer starts to freeze up with these long posts anyway. Gotham You know what just do me a favor and make the “Alpha and betas were used for centuries” sentence bold in your comment since you’re so adamant about it so that people reading this can focus immediately on the part that makes them go “oh, they are not a really bright person” and immediately stop wasting their time Lisa Izo Wow, I literally said you were going to focus on alpha and beta again instead of the rest of the post, and you did. My exact words in the post – “And now you’ll probably not read this post either and latch onto alpha/beta again.” I must be clairvoyant or something. Btw…. X-Men also uses Alpha mutants, Beta mutants, Gamma mutants and then added Omega mutants as something higher than alpha. 🙂 (although in ethology, omega isn’t the highest, it’s the lowest – Marvel gets hinky sometimes). And yes, alpha and beta are terms that have been used in ethology for centuries. Sorry if facts are interfering with your feelings on how I’ve used the terms. I havent even used them for ethology… just as shorthand. Which I’ve now said mulitple times. Gotham You are so close, so close to telling me ‘hm excuse me, I’ll have you know that alpha and beta and omega and a few others exist since Ancient Greece–ever heard of /THE ALPHABET/” I was so hoping you would go there. You’ve clearly no limit to how much you’re willing to embarrass yourself. Lisa Izo It’s almost like you don’t bother to read my posts when you respond. I’m talking about how alpha and beta have been used in ethology, the study of human behavior and social organization from a biological perspective (also he science of animal behavior), and how today those words are most often used as shorthand for other words …. and you’re talking about it as if I’m saying the origin of actual words from latin. Honestly the only one embarrassing themselves would be you, if you realized how far off you are missing the mark on what I post. Gotham No, it is not. One guy put that theory down and once he realized he got it wrong, tried his whole life to discredit his own theory. It’s not considered seriously anymore by nobody never. But it had caught on and got too big too kill. It’s a simple shorthand that, despite being wrong, is easy to understand for not very bright people. But it’s not just that that allowed it to stick to popular consciousness and let it appear in comics books and tv shows and what have yous (the place where not very bright people get their crash courses in ethology, eminently) It’s also a model ripe to imbue whatever value judgment not very bright people got into their heads was lacking to the idea. Hence a hefty dose of sexism once not very bright people think something that applies to wolves (actually doesn’t) must evidently apply to humans because wolves = humans, obviously but “who fucking cares about that finally someone tells me nature ordered /me/ to be in charge and the problem with society is that I am not!! proof of that being all those women not fucking me” It’s dumb. It’s just a really dumb idea. As dumb as “millennials are lazy” or “millennials are killing the napkin industry” or “the earth is flat”. I’m sorry I’m not being civil about our intellectual debate regarding how you think the earth is flat. You’re making me laugh very hard telling me it’s always a flat circles on all the images you’ve printed on paper so you’re totally right. Lisa Izo Please stop quoting, almost word for word, Adam Ruins Everything. It’s not doing much for your ‘millennials are not lazy’ argument. Not to mention, once again, alpha and beta have refers to pack hunters and animals (especially in mating) terminology, for centuries. Attributing it from a scientific standpoint to humans is what happened in the 40 and 50s, which then caught on. But in both cases you’re incorrect on what I’m saying. 1) Alpha and Beta as terms relating to ethology have existed for centuries. They just didn’t exist as descriptors for humans until the 20th century, because of the Shecknel (or whatever his name is) study. Which he then said did not stand up to scientific rigor because of the possiblity that he was observing wolves as a familial unit instead of in their role as a pack. But wolves do hunt in packs. And they do choose mates based on whoever is the alpha, just as other many other species do (although Bonobos have an alpha FEMALE instead of an alpha male). Keep ignoring it if you want, but you’re wrong on how long the term has been around. 2) Quoting a TV show with quite a few problems in their reasoning isn’t actually making you look intellectual. Do some actual research from the actual studies and what actually happened. And then actually apply that information to what I actually said, and what I actually have now reiterated for 5 actual times about how I was using shorthand since you clearly do know what I am meaning when I’ve said alpha and beta. Because you’re having a visceral, hate-filled reaction to it. I dunno, maybe you consider yourself to have more traits in common with what we’d call a beta and you’re reacting defensively. Don’t know, don’t care. This is a dumb thread now. ” As dumb as “millennials are lazy” or “millennials are killing the napkin industry” or “the earth is flat”.” If you’re an example of millenial thought, then you’re not doing the stereotype any favors with the way you’ve been arguing (or ‘not debating’ – as you described it). Also I never said anything about millennials killing the napkin industry – that just sounds like something stupid that a magazine author wrote to sell the article, like when people say ‘the eclipse from august 20 was racist’ or other BS. Also never said the Earth was flat either. I’m just noting not only my own personal observance of others my age, but also events happening at colleges like Miss U and Evergreen and way too many other colleges lately. Or Occupy movements. Not to mention a lot of protesters my age who, when you ask them about what they’re protesting, or why they’re protesting, seem utterly incoherent as they didn’t take the time to actually learn about what they’re protesting. Like it or not, that’s the stereotype about millennials. That they’re lazy. And it’s because they’re portrayed that way by the media, and there’s an inordinate amount of people who are ‘millennials’ who seem to take things for granted and want things just given to them. I think that’s why socialist candidates like Bernie Sanders resonate with them. They’re getting offered free stuff, even though nothing is actually free. It’s why the Democratic party has drifted far away from classical liberalism and libertarianism, to the point where Libertarians find more in common now with conservtives. “I’m sorry I’m not being civil about our intellectual debate” Oh, I don’t think you’re sorry at all about not being civil. And calling anything from your side intellectual or a debate would be very generous, especially since you just got through saying you arent debating. “regarding how you think the earth is flat.” More strawman arguments of things I never even remotely said. Skipping. “You’re making me laugh very hard” I doubt I’m making you laugh. I’m probably infuriating you because I don’t get rattled by you and I’ve remained intellectually consistent while you keep ignoring large swaths of my posts. I think you might be gnashing your teeth when you read mine. When I read yours its more a sense of general apathy about what you’re saying, since I know you’re barely reading my posts, and just skipping to buzzwords. “telling me it’s always a flat circles on all the images you’ve printed on paper” More flat earth stuff? Why are you so stuck on flat earth stuff? How does anything I say remotely have to do with ‘flat earth.’ How do Clevin, Patrick, and Max have anything to do with Flat Earth? Is it because you ran out of buzzwords that I said and so now you need to use buzzwords that I did not say? Strawman + buzzwords. You’re really digging in there arent you? “so you’re totally right” The only thing you’ve said in any post in this thread that is correct. Gotham I’ve literally no idea what Adam Ruins Everything is, but thanks to context clues I managed to figure out it’s a webshow where they proved the earth was round and you’re very hung up about this and I have to say I understand the sunk cost fallacy but man do you have stock these idiots to justify the lengths you’re willing to go to keep being demonstrably, easily verifiably wrong? Lisa Izo “I’ve literally no idea what Adam Ruins Everything is” Pretty sure you do since you quoted it almost exactly. ” but thanks to context clues I managed to figure out it’s a webshow ” It’s a TV show. Which you know. “where they proved the earth was round” And you’re back on flat earth for some reason. “you’re very hung up about this” You’re the one who keeps on getting caught up on buzzwords and have an abnormal fixation on disputing the flat earth argument with someone who’s never used it and has never argued about it. ” do you have stock these idiots to justify the lengths you’re willing to go to keep being demonstrably, easily verifiably wrong?” Is the reason you keep talking about Flat Earth because you think if you say it long enough, I’ll somehow start trying to defend Flat Earth arguments? Do you even remember what this thread was about? Would you like me to start talking about how you believe that hurricanes are sexist and the eclipse is racist and put you in that category? Although somehow I’m not entirely sure that you don’t think those two arguments are true now… Gotham Wait, wait, what are you saying. Adam Ruins Everything (a show I genuinely don’t know the first thing about, again) makes your line of reasoning confusing. Are you saying they are defending or supporting flat earth theory? Lisa Izo “Wait, wait, what are you saying.” I’m saying you don’t know how to have a coherent discussion. “Adam Ruins Everything (a show I genuinely don’t know the first thing about, again) makes your line of reasoning confusing.” I’m saying you quoted parts of an episode of Adam Ruins Everything. “Are you saying they are defending or supporting flat earth theory?” No, I’m saying you’re fixated on saying stuff about the Flat Earth argument (calling it a theory is semantically wrong since it fails after the hypothesis phase since we’ve actually SEEN the Earth from orbit and people have known the Earth was round since ancient Greece because of math). I’m also saying you’re fixated because you keep bringing up Flat Earth despite my never having said anything about it, the topic of the thread having nothing to do with it, the buzzwords I used for alpha and beta had nothing to do with it, the show you’re quoting from in attack of ‘alpha and beta’ (of which I was using as shorthand to begin with), has nothing to do with it. You’re making ridiculous strawmans and are a poor debater. Not that you’ve been debating because you’ve said you aren’t debating anyway. Gotham I mean, do you seriously expect flat earth theory to be disproved by just the one webshow? When something is painfully obviously wrong it’s not just dumb shows that point it out, the knowledge can come from a wide variety of places. What weird life must you lead if you think your experience of media is identical to that of others. But also the pictures of earth from orbit are obviously fake wake up sheeple Lisa Izo “I mean, do you seriously expect flat earth theory to be disproved by just the one webshow?” It’s seriously like you are in some other thread with how you respond to posts. We arent talking about Flat Earth ‘theory.’ And Adam Ruins Everything is a TV show on Tru TV, which you know since you were quoting from the show directly from the cringeworthy episode on dating. Why are you still talking about flat earth stuff? “When something is painfully obviously wrong it’s not just dumb shows that point it out, the knowledge can come from a wide variety of places.” Speaking of which, this sentence of yours is just awful and incoherent. I’ve read it three times and have no idea what you’re trying to say here, but I gather that it has nothing to do with the thread, like most of the posts you’ve made since you’ve gone on the flat earth tangent that I’ve been thoroughly not participating in. “What weird life must you lead if you think your experience of media is identical to that of others” … It’s called MASS media for a reason. “But also the pictures of earth from orbit are obviously fake wake up sheeple” Annnnd again she’s going on about flat earth theory. And calling me ‘sheeple’ (and I’m assuming other people, since sheeple would imply multiple people). Going on and on and on and on and on about flat earth – the discussion that no one is having on this page, no one’s talked about, no one wants to talk about, and that has nothing to do in any way with any conversation anyone’s even mentioned slightly (other than Gotham) on any of this webcomic’s forum. Ever. Please stop talking about ‘Flat Earth Theory.’ Gotham I don’t understand why you suddenly can’t help but attack me personally. Is it really that difficult to remain courteous and stay on topic? Why are you so keen on not participating on this debate? Lisa Izo This coming from the person who has done nothing but make personal attacks…. and has yet to be on topic at all. Also you said a few times that you aren’t debating. Well at least you’re not talking about flat earth anymore. Now you just are pretending to be me for the last several posts. Gotham Do you mean to tell me that you see absolutely no value in discussing nonsense the other has been painfully pushing for? Are you having a revelation right now? Lisa Izo “Do you mean to tell me that you see absolutely no value in discussing nonsense the other has been painfully pushing for?” It’s good to see that you push nonsense at least. “Are you having a revelation right now?” I wouldn’t call knowing that you aren’t capable of coherent posts to be a revelation. I’ve realized this since you started getting into a huff on the alpha/beta terms, and then it was cemented when you started strawmanning about flat earth stuff. Gotham This is amazing. You are so bad at this. It’s almost like you do it on purpose. “It started there, and then you did this other thing, and I have no clue as to the logical link between the two. Beats me! And here I’ll mention flat earth theory again so I can blow Gotham’s mind later in telling her that I actually never said this so this citation is in fact… dun dun dun… all wrong!” Lisa Izo I think you’re missing some nouns in place of pronouns… “This is amazing.” What is amazing? “You are so bad at this.” Bad at what? “It’s almost like you do it on purpose.” Do what on purpose? ““It started there” What started where? “and then you did this other thing,” What other thing? “and I have no clue as to the logical link between the two.” The two whats? “Beats me!” No comment here. Too easy. “And here I’ll mention flat earth theory again” Good. It’s been a few minutes without you mentioning flat earth theory. “so I can blow Gotham’s mind later” Are…. are you talking in the third person about yourself? “in telling her that I actually never said this” You told yourself? What? I’m assuming you no longer need me for this thread since you’re now arguing with yourself. Cool. “so this citation” What citation? “is in fact” Pretty sure I havent seen any facts in your posts, but okay? “dun dun dun… all wrong” Not sure that merited an ominous ‘dun dun dun…’ but okay? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 Gotham For the life of me I can’t imagine what it must be like to flaunt your lack of comprehension as proud argumentative victory or something. Do yourself a favor and ask a friend to reread the entire thread and tell you what you missed. Literally Anyone. (Though it’s important that you shush them when they’re going to tell you you were saying utter nonsense about alpha and beta males and skip to the next parts otherwise you’re going to be there all day) Lisa Izo Oh wow you sure told me off by telling me I didn’t understand when you start talking in nonsense posts:). Gee whiz. Golly. Btw, now we’re finally on something that resembles something that’s actually been said (the alpha and beta thing) you already admitted that I have said I used the terms as shorthand. Yknow… the thing I said I don’t know how many posts ago? Gotham Come on, I know you can do it. Try to concentrate. Did I ever dispute that you used the terms as shorthand? (Hint: I was even the one to mention the term “shorthand” first) Lisa Izo “Come on, I know you can do it. Try to concentrate. Did I ever dispute that you used the terms as shorthand?” Actually you just started talking about flat earth rather obsessively as a strawman argument, ignoring the alpha/beta part after your first response, mainly because I responded to you. Feel free to scroll up. Then you just went back to Alpha and Beta in the last post you made an hour ago, calling it utter nonsense, which would be a non-issue if you comprehend that I was using it as shorthand. “(Hint: I was even the one to mention the term “shorthand” first)” Actually I was the one to mention ‘shorthand’ first. 🙂 Gotham Catty? It’s adorable when you’re trying your damnest to act condescending when I have to move hell and earth to /not/ be toward you. But look, I really don’t know what to do with how dense you are. First off, nope, you weren’t, literal first line. Then there’s the issue that you claim to dispute the scientific legitimacy of that theory and were merely using it as a shorthand, /despite/ being in open disagreement with every scientifically sound source that tells it’s bullshit every occasion you can. Then there’s being so slow you don’t understand “but I’m only using them as a shorthand” doesn’t absolve you from criticism. You do know about things called slurs, right? Nigh everybody knows what slurs refer to but it still makes it insulting to use. Is it okay with you so far? Can you hold in your head that something can be /both/ effective at communicating an idea /and/ offensive discourse to avoid? Tell me if this is difficult. Then there’s the figures of speech you don’t understand, the sentences you don’t understand… and the hints sprinkled here and here that wow you are indeed someone with terrible opinions so my previous comment about making damn sure one would need to establish themselves as not an asshole when deciding to use antiquated bullshit unscientific terms such as “alpha/beta males” becomes entirely moot, but this sentence has gone for many lines and I’m sure I’ve lost you already. Can I baptise you Dunning–Kruger? Lisa Izo “. First off, nope, you weren’t, literal first line. ” Oh for crying out loud, look at the post you responded to there. I literally wrote ‘short-hand’ in the previous post. Blah blah blah, some more attempts at being catty … “Can I baptise you Dunning–Kruger?” Nope. Nothing illusory about who’s been shown to be smarter in this back and forth. And there’s nothing slurring about the terms as I used them. Anyway, I’m beginning to think the main reason you’re ‘not debating’ me for this long is you’re just waiting out the clock until comments are disabled for this page, in hopes that you’ll post last, because in your mind, the last post wins (even if pretty much all of your posts have been off-topic or just namecalling). Am I right? 🙂 Gotham Well would you look at that I was actually wrong about a thing due to poor Ctrl+F. You’ll have to excuse me, rereading your posts is physically painful. Disregard my previous “hint” then, even though that doesn’t change anything about why I take offense with your discourse. And I adore your awkward attempt at sweeping the entirety of my post after that under the rug as if it wasn’t cringeworthily obvious you were trying to get rid of a hot potato you can’t handle. I don’t even think it’s because you think I’m right, it’s just because you don’t understand the things I’m saying. Well, I am “debating” now, Dunning-Kruger, so where’s all your unearned bravado gone? Come on, tell me again that “alpha and beta males” are not slurs so my remark doesn’t apply because you can’t conceptualize the concept of a comparison, /please/ this is the sweetest nectar Lisa Izo It’s becoming easier to just point out your debating flaws, since your posts don’t actually have anything substantive to say. No offense, but you’re just not a good debater when you mainly just make insults and already admitted in the first post that I didn’t do what you’ve now been trying to attack me for doing. “Well would you look at that I was actually wrong about a thing due to poor Ctrl+F. ” Makes provable error, then makes excuse for it. “You’ll have to excuse me, rereading your posts is physically painful.” Ad hominem. “Disregard my previous “hint” then, even though that doesn’t change anything about why I take offense with your discourse.” Special pleading. “And I adore your awkward attempt at sweeping the entirety of my post after that under the rug as if it wasn’t cringeworthily obvious you were trying to get rid of a hot potato you can’t handle.” Argument from adverse consequences and non-sequitur. And ad hominem. ” I don’t even think it’s because you think I’m right, it’s just because you don’t understand the things I’m saying. Ad hominem. “ell, I am “debating” now, Dunning-Kruger,” Ad hominem and namecalling. “so where’s all your unearned bravado gone?” Begging the question and non-sequitur. “Come on, tell me again that “alpha and beta males” are not slurs” Special pleading and straw man tactics. Also they are not slurs, particularly in how I used them. “so my remark doesn’t apply because you can’t conceptualize the concept of a comparison,” Special pleading. “/please/ this is the sweetest nectar” Non-sequitur. Gotham Okay now see this is getting complicated because you’re saying such nonsense I’m not sure if it’s because you don’t understand the words you’re using (like special pleading that you managed to not once use appropriately) or because you don’t understand the things I’m saying. I had my interrogations about your claims to do some kind of legal work (from what I’ve gleaned) considering how unlikely that sounds that someone who believes the earth is flat could be competent at… anything, really, but this is something else. Regardless, it’s more of your whining that I’m being oh so mean, but since you’re saying that it’s getting easier then by all means keep at it! As in, not like last time when you hastily hand-waved it away. Here it is in list form for your reading pleasure, and let it be recorded somewhere that I’m doing my best to make it easier for your limited comprehension skills above a very low threshold of complexity. So. – You use antiquated, unscientific, sexist terms when it is all but unnecessary – You keep disregarding the fact that continuing to perpetuate their use, even as shorthands, endorses and legitimizes their existence and the antiquated, unscientific, sexist undertones they carry – Despite your claim to not regard these terms as scientifically sound like they should never be, you keep being dismissive of the sources that questioned their legitimacy almost as if you not so secretly thought they did in fact described an accurate model of human social behavior – Your distilled opinions about millennials and every unearned rant going along with them are really, really fucked up (care to elaborate about Bernie Sanders?) – You think the earth is flat Lisa Izo “Okay now see this is getting complicated because you’re saying such nonsense ” Ad hominem. “from what I’ve gleaned) considering how unlikely that sounds that someone who believes the earth is flat could be competent at… anything, really, but this is something else. ” Back to talking about flat earth. “Regardless, it’s more of your whining ” Mischaracterization. “You use antiquated, unscientific, sexist terms when it is all but unnecessary” Strawman argument since I wasn’t using it as science. Also weasel words. “ou keep disregarding the fact that continuing to perpetuate their use, even as shorthands, endorses and legitimizes their existence and the antiquated, unscientific, sexist undertones they carry” Excluded middle and strawman. “Despite your claim to not regard these terms as scientifically sound like they should never be, you keep being dismissive of the sources that questioned their legitimacy” Observational selection, even in this very sentence. “endorses and legitimizes their existence and the antiquated, unscientific, sexist undertones they carry” Back to ad hominem and weasel words. “Your distilled opinions about millennials and every unearned rant going along with them are really, really fucked up (care to elaborate about Bernie Sanders?)” Non-sequitur and ad hominem. “You think the earth is flat” And back to flat earth argument again. Gotham Stop being dull, I just have to say “argument from fallacy” to break every instance of these words you don’t know how to use. Lisa Izo Except that nothing I said was false. Perhaps you should stick to just namecalling again. Also for someone so dull, I seem to be someone you can’t help but respond to every time I post 🙂 Gotham Yep no, I’m done. I’m sure we’ll get back to this conversation again some other time and hopefully by then you’ll know what “weasel words” means. Lisa Izo Uh… intentionally misleading words or terms, making a vague claim that you’re trying to put forth as meaningful. Are you unclear that you’ve done that? Antequated? Wow. Just… wow. Not to mention that every time you try to go off on a tangent, it’s because you’re trying to evade any sort of direct statements to my posts. Gotham Look at this five dimensional ourobouros. You don’t know what weasel words mean and you think it means “words I don’t understand” so you put it after every word you don’t understand. Gaaah— Lisa Izo “Look at this five dimensional ourobouros.” Seriously, who talks like this? Who makes insults like this? ” You don’t know what weasel words mean” I literally just gave you the exact definition of ‘weasel words’ in my previous post. “and you think it means “words I don’t understand”” No, I actually just explained to you in the previous post what it means. Reading comprehension is a good thing to have. “so you put it after every word you don’t understand.” Actually i only used it when you were using weasel words. Honestly, judging from this thread, I’m pretty sure I’m a lot smarter than you are. No offense. “Gaaah—” So…. does that mean you’ll stop responding to my posts or will I be hearing more of your very odd insults about flat earthers and five dimensional ourobori? Gotham Copypasting a definition doesn’t make you understand a word you use because “wow, antiquated! Whatever might that mean?! Weasel words defense, protect me from evil”. It’s actually using it appropriately that does. I’ve yet to see that. I didn’t expect you to understand “excluded middle” but even your use of strawman is so liberal as to make it pretty damn suspicious you don’t know what it means. Also, will you seriously stop pondering in awe in front of every turn of phrase you encounter? Do you seriously think it doesn’t make you sound stupid to unironically act like Drax from Guardians of the Galaxy? Make a goddamn effort if you want me or anyone else to do the same. Lisa Izo “Copypasting a definition doesn’t make you understand a word you use ” … weasel words don’t mean ‘words you don’t understand.’ Geez. They mean misleading words or terms used to make a vague term seem meaningful when it’s not. And that wasn’t cut and paste. That’s just the common definition that everyone would know. Except you, apparently. And still accepting that you use ad hominem and non-sequiturs as your go-to debating tactics, I see. “wow, antiquated! Whatever might that mean?!” You used it as a vague and ambiguous term, trying to fake being meaningful when you’re not even remotely so, one second claiming that alpha and beta are a recent and disproven term that have not been used for centuries, while at the same time saying that they’re ‘antequated.’ “Weasel words defense, protect me from evil”. I don’t think you’re evil. I just don’t think you’re particularly intelligent when it comes to debate. And you’re a bit petty, which is why you resort to all the ad hominems. Not even sure why you keep posting back when each time you claim you’re not going to anymore. I must really get under your skin for some reason. Go figure. “It’s actually using it appropriately that does.” Absolutely no idea what this sentence means because it’s incoherent. “even your use of strawman is so liberal as to make it pretty damn suspicious you don’t know what it means.” Your entire ‘flat earth’ rant is a strawman argument. “Also, will you seriously stop pondering in awe in front of every turn of phrase you encounter?” I’m just amazed sometimes that you keep arguing about things that have nothing to do with my posts, every single time. “Do you seriously think it doesn’t make you sound stupid to unironically act like Drax from Guardians of the Galaxy?” More ad hominem attacks. Yawn. Sort of beginning to see why Arkone muted you. I won’t though. I’m fine with being the subject of contempt from someone I don’t respect. “Make a goddamn effort if you want me or anyone else to do the same.” To see you actually put effort or coherent thought or anything related to the posts that you respond to into your own posts would be astounding. So far you haven’t. You just ramble on and make insults because you can’t just have a normal, rational discussion. To the point that you’ve now been doing that on this thread for days. Gotham “[…] alpha and beta are a recent and disproven term that have not been used for centuries, while at the same time saying that they’re ‘antiquated.’” What. And I’m incoherent? And calling my use of the flat earth thing a strawman argument is, shocker, hazardously lopsided (you can look that one up too) and unappropriate for the situation, but it’ll be too complicated to explain, whatever. (It involves that dreaded nemesis of yours /analogies/) Also it’s fascinating how you manage to believe you have moral high ground when you’ve been (trying to be) just as condescending as I’ve been… and it takes two people to keep a conversation going, my hypocritical friend. I am indeed very petty with vile idiots but at least I’m honest, try it sometime. Lisa Izo “What. And I’m incoherent?” Yes, you’re extremely incoherent. “And calling my use of the flat earth thing a strawman argument is, shocker, hazardously lopsided” You argue against something idiotic which I’ve never even mentioned in order to be on the winning side of an argument (for once). But you’re not arguing against me. You’re arguing against a strawman that you’ve fashioned in my place because MY arguments are not as simple to debate, or require ability than you seem capable of without resorting to emotional outbursts or insults. Also the rest of your sentence is, again, incoherent. Sentence structure – please. “Also it’s fascinating how you manage to believe you have moral high ground” Feel free to look at the thread. I respond only in kind to how you respond in intensity. And to be honest I restrain things I’d say if I wasn’t trying to get a rational debate going. But you just don’t – you keep insulting, which means there’s no discussion to be had – the only thing I have to respond to are your insults and poor debating techniques. “when you’ve been (trying to be) just as condescending as I’ve been” Well at least you admit that you’re condescending. I’ve actually been trying to NOT be condescending, but you just don’t seem to use any substance in your posts to which I can respond. It’s always ad hominems, strawmen, catty personal attacks, etc. You initiate them. I respond. “and it takes two people to keep a conversation going” This hasn’t been a conversation since like… the third or fourth post, after which you got all ‘flat-earthy’ and ‘you’re a doomed soul.’ “I am indeed very petty with vile idiots” Seriously, who say stuff like this? Vile idiots? This is like b-list comic book talk. But yes, you’re petty. And you show it when you call people vile idiots and flat earthers and racists and misogynists and ‘Dunning-Kuger and , my personal favorite, five dimensional ouroboros. “but at least I’m honest, ” Only about the fact that you’re petty and you don’t bother to debate (before you started claiming you were). “try it sometime.” I’ve been quite honest this entire time. 🙂 Arkone Axon …Oh, wow. She’s STILL harping on me? I can’t see a word she’s saying because I blocked her for the constant attacks and claiming that every single post I made was proof of my being a sexist misogynistic entitled scumbag (I don’t even own a fedora. I have a few cowboy hats, though…). And more importantly, because she kept emphasizing that she was not only choosing to refuse to answer any questions or debate or discuss, but that she was morally right because I was such a horrible and stupid and misinformed person. At which point… it’s not debate, it’s not even arguing, it’s screaming abuse and feeling self-righteous about it. I reacted to the use of that stupid “alpha/beta” crap (even though you were simply using the outdated terminology as a shorthand)… but I didn’t resort to personal attacks or insult your intelligence. You’re very intelligent, you’re well informed, and when I think you’re mistaken about something or misinformed I respond to the argument, the way you do in turn. (also: pit bulls are not inherently aggressive. They’re actually naturally sweet and loving, like any other dog – if anything, smaller dogs tend to be more aggressive because their owners ignore misbehavior that seems “cute.” Pit bulls turn aggressive because of how they’re raised and trained – I’ve known pit bulls who were incredibly sweet and gentle, and I’ve known pit bulls that I had to put in choke holds to get them to let go. Three guesses what kind of person raised the latter…) Lisa Izo “…Oh, wow. She’s STILL harping on me? I can’t see a word she’s saying because I blocked her for the constant attacks and claiming that every single post I made was proof of my being a sexist misogynistic entitled scumbag” She made one sentence saying that you were linking garbage when you responded to my using the terms ‘alpha male’ and ‘beta male.’ I didnt think they were garbage. They’re just not on point to how I was using the terms. “You’re very intelligent, you’re well informed, and when I think you’re mistaken about something or misinformed I respond to the argument, the way you do in turn” Yes I know. I don’t have a problem with your posts. No worries. “also: pit bulls are not inherently aggressive. They’re actually naturally sweet and loving, like any other dog – if anything, smaller dogs tend to be more aggressive because their owners ignore misbehavior that seems “cute.”” Yeah, I’m again just using the word pit bull because of what the word conjures up in the minds of most people. Aggressive and dangerous, as opposed to corgi, who are harmless. Since you never heard of a corgi biting a person ‘s face off, even if they were treated badly. In actuality, there are no bad doggos. They’re good dogs, Brent. https://media0ch-a.akamaihd.net/45/53/f569ec879c016db4ad8fe5bfb471e62e.jpg Lisa Izo Oh also heads up – Gotham thinks we’re the same person because we both disagree with her and I defended you when she called your links (which I even disagree with) garbage. Or we are soul mates. Arkone Axon I wish we were the same person. I’d love to have an attorney’s income. Amazon keeps screwing over authors and we’re still looking at better outlets for marketing and distribution… >.> Arkone Axon Wait… the “Alpha male/beta male” crap? The “alpha/beta” theory devised by Rudolph Schenkel in 1947… and who has spent most of the decades since then trying to explain to everyone that he was incorrect and based his theories on a flawed study of wolves in captivity? http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/man-who-cried-alpha Meanwhile, it turns out that “alpha” behavior actually does the opposite of what we think it does. It doesn’t get things done, it accomplishes the opposite: http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/pulpit-bullies-why-dominating-leaders-kill-teams https://www.bodetree.com/bullies-make-bad-leaders/ I say all that because Clevin actually has been shown accomplishing quite a bit, when he’s not feeling pushed aside or put down. The first time Alison noticed he had positive qualities was when he was wearing those silly sunglasses and performing on a stage to raise money for a friend’s medical expenses. Which… makes me think that Clevin has had a lot of issues with bullying behavior in the past. I’ve known a lot of people who hid themselves away and never showed their true potential… until they were finally encouraged to face their fears and prove what they could do. Lisa Izo “Wait… the “Alpha male/beta male” crap? ” Arkone, I did tell you to ignore the Adam Ruins Everything episode 🙂 When I was referring to alpha male beta male I’m not talking scientific analogies. I’m just talking bout the concept of leaders and followers in general. I’m not trying to write a thesis or a scientific rule of social behavior like Schnenkel was. Also the Adam Ruins Everything episode on that was woefully cherry-picked. If you’d prefer I say ‘leaders’ and ‘followers’ I’ll say that instead. Max and Patrick are leader mentalities with high opinions of their own self-worth. Clevin is a follower mentality, with an extremely low opinion of his self worth. Does that work better than using the terminology that I was trying to avoid in the first place? Would you prefer other general terminology for the types of cliques these two types of people would be in? Jocks and Nerds? Prom Queen and Wallflower? Bart Simpson and Milhouse? Or how about I just use a page from Futurama and say Sharks or Sheep? Max and Patrick are sharks. Clevin’s a sheep. Plug in Shark and Sheep where I wrote Alpha and Beta. Same result. 🙂 Arkone Axon Sorry. I’ve never even heard of “Adam Ruins Everything.” There’s a LOT of media out there and nobody can be expected to be familiar with everything, no matter how popular it might be. For example: I’ve never read or watched Game of Thrones, but I’m very fond of a couple of youtube channels. Jaxblade is an amazing fitness instructor whose videos include workouts to emulate the abilities of various video game and anime characters, as well as reviews of fictional workout regimens to see if they would work in RL (including the famous “100 pushups, 100 situps, 100 squats, 10 kilometers, every single day” routine). And Isaac Arthur has an Elmer Fudd speech impediment that you quickly ignore once he starts talking about aliens ( “stupid aliens” and “crazy aliens” in fiction, the Fermi Paradox, interplanetary warfare, colonization of other worlds) or emergent technologies (his description of what life might be like in 2077 was absolutely breathtaking, particularly the bit about electronic textbooks that analyze the comprehension of the reader and change their text to make it easier to learn the material). The reason I jumped on the “Alpha/Beta” stuff is that it’s like talking about the four humours, or phrenology. It’s been proven to be incorrect and I hate that it’s STILL being used in popular culture even today (of course, psychiatrists feel the same way about Freudian discussion of oedipal issues, when modern psychiatry is mostly a combination of finding the correct medication with psychotherapy that is far less interested in understanding why the patient is engaging in the negative behavior than in helping the patient learn to stop doing the negative behavior – which is what the patient is looking for in the first place). I’m especially annoyed by talk of “alphas and betas” because I’ve dealt with more than a few idiots who were all talk, “writing checks with their mouths that their bodies couldn’t cash,” and they loved to talk about being “alpha males.” “Not when he’s in competition with another though, which was my point.” Yeah. And that’s why I despise “alpha male” jerks. “Healthy competition” doesn’t work so well when you’re competing against your own teammates. Give me a team of brilliant and skilled people who just need to learn how to see their true worth any day. Show them how awesome they are, then set them loose and let them show the world. R Lex Eaton Quite. Let’s see where this takes us. If I had to hazard a guess, Clevin’s shock is probably less due to what Patrick is saying and more about how he found out. I’d be a bit freaked out about my SO gossiping with her friends about our personal lives, especially concerning things they have no way of knowing. Shjade …uh. Are you suggesting you think Clevin thinks that Alison told Patrick about the phone pictures? If that were the case, why would Patrick have phrased it as a question: “Does Alison know?” Either I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying, or I suspect you’re misreading the conversation. R Lex Eaton …it’s probably the latter. My bad. ^^; Lisa Izo Unless it’s natural for Clevin to think that Patrick is a mind-reader, it’s conceivable that he’d think that either Alison saw the pictures, or maybe someone he talked to about the picture told Patrick? Although I don’t think Clevin’s actually thought about it that far either way. Elaine Lee Patrick is in love with Alison. He’s getting rid of Clevin. For once, I think Patrick’s motivations are simple. Gotham The evidence pertaining to that is quite lacking. He almost seems entirely aromantic. Stephanie Eck, I hope he’s not really aromantic. I’m so tired of aromanticism being packaged in with the sinister, manipulative, hyper-pragmatic genius archetype. Gotham What about inability to be romantic, rather? I agree with the tired trope but a thorough exploration of how constantly knowing how people feel about you would make him literally unable to connect with anyone, or at least feel as if that was the case, I’d take. Oren Leifer I agree. I liked when Tattletale in Worm was unable to be romantic due to her constant stream of TMI from other people, and while I wouldn’t love it, it would make sense from Patrick. Although in Patrick’s case, I think that it would be fitting if he feels that is the case, only to find that it’s a matter of having to realize that nobody is perfect and everyone has deviant, embarrassing, or otherwise unendearing thoughts, and that if you live in the world you have to live with that. Mechwarrior I think the issue is that Patrick is unable to empathize with other people despite or perhaps because of his telepathic abilities. Gotham I don’t think so? I think Patrick puts up a “smater than thou” act specifically because perusing into everybody’s mind makes him feel like he’s the despicable one in an ocean of greatness. That he didn’t allow Alison to think he was a good person because he can’t himself believe he is a good person. The way I see it, he can and does empathize /and/ sympathize but for the life of him he can’t figure one reason why anyone could ever actually do the same for him “for they have no idea how terrible he /actually/ is”, from his own terribly biased point of view. Lysiuj Him thinking he’s horrible among everyone else would kind of parallel real life people. Like how so many people think highly of others but lowly of themselves. Unlike Patrick we can’t read other people’s minds; but even so we might feel like we have more insight into others than into ourselves. Especcially since Patrick like us can’t read his own mind. So both Patrick and many real life people feel like they can see the best in others and the worst in themselves. Grayson Towler I don’t know, in the state he’s in, I doubt Patrick is very aromatic… Oh! My bad. Carry on. Glotos I don’t see any evidence in prior pages that Patrick showered. If his clothes were bad enough for Alison to throw out, he’s probably VERY aromatic right now. (Going with dictionary.com’s “odoriferous” here.) Grayson Towler While I can agree it’s unlikely in the extreme that Clevin harbors any deep dark plan, I can’t really stick with you on “endearing.” He’s running away here at the first hint of a challenge. Cowardice, even when understandable, isn’t endearing to me. If I may express my opinions in the form of an epic ballad… “Brave Sir Clevin ran away (Clevin: ‘No!’) Bravely ran away away When Patrick reared his bandaged head He bravely turned his tail and fled Yes, brave Sir Clevin turned about (Clevin: ‘I didn’t!’) And gallantly he chickened out Bravely taking to his feet (Clevin: ‘I never did!’) He beat a very brave retreat Bravest of the brave, Sir Clevin! (Clevin: ‘All lies! I never!’)” sgmagnus “First hint of challenge” = being picked apart by a mind-reading possible-supergenius. I think that’s a reasonable situation to be overwhelmed by. Prodigal This was not the first hint of a challenge. This was someone with years of experience riffling through people’s brains to find their insecurities and then preying upon them. Dwight Williams Amen to that. Urthman This is nonsense. Patrick can see into your mind and find whatever it is that he could say to make you get upset and run away. The fact that Clevin’s weak spot is not the same as your weak spot is irrelevant. Patrick could make you run away just as easily. Grayson Towler Yes, I understand that. Patrick is kind of a Kobiyashi Maru test. He’s a no-win situation. Clevin never stood a chance, and I don’t hold that against him. The no-win test reveals your character under adversity. In Clevin’s case, we saw something important about his character. I didn’t find it particularly endearing, which is all I’m saying here. Your mileage may vary. Rando Reminder that the “healthy communication” was him complaining that she didn’t *PUBLICLY* thank him for his actions at an unrelated event. Sleazebaggano R Lex Eaton And if he didn’t admit upfront that said feeling was irrational and shameful, I’d be more inclined to agree. But no on both counts. Gotham People need /some/ amount of validation and Alison fails in that department, I mean the way she went to check up on him while the former superhero gang was speaking was essentially a “everything okay with the normals over here?” I get that, for a variety of reasons, he’d want to feel like he mattered more to her. Stephanie Jeez, people are allowed to have problematic emotions sometimes. Sometimes people want things they’re not necessarily justified in wanting; that’s the reality of messy, human emotions. It doesn’t make him a sleazebag. Rando You can have emotions. How you deal with them however, can make you a sleazebag. Stephanie People are allowed to express their problematic emotions sometimes, too. It can be sleazy if it becomes a pattern. You saw it happen one time. Are you this quick to write people off in real life, or is this a Clevin-specific thing for you? Shjade While I agree with you, Stephanie, the question Patrick asked him re: phone pictures suggests that it’s possible there is, in fact, a pattern we simply haven’t had the privilege of seeing. Not necessarily with him imposing emotional burdens on Alison directly, but in needing to draw attention/recognition from his relationship with her. We don’t have anything remotely resembling confirmation of that yet, given Patrick is, himself, a jerk, and might be airing these thoughts in the worst possible light…but it’s quite plausible that Clevin’s been less-than-stellar for a while, off-page and perhaps unbeknownst to Alison. I wouldn’t call him a sleazebag for it, but it does make me think less of him. Stephanie I’m down with it being a persistent character flaw, just not with the whole “and therefore he’s definitely total garbage” thing. A nuanced perspective is all I ask for. Arkone Axon The healthy communication was him pointing out that she didn’t include him when thanking everyone else… and in previous discussions of this topic it’s been pointed out by pretty much everyone who has ever been in a relationship and received an award, or simply watched someone in a relationship receive an award, always takes the time to thank their partner – the person who provided emotional support and took care of all the little things so they didn’t have to. Making meals, rubbing aching feet, massaging sore backs, all the little things that really add up. Alison was always a prima donna and still learning to get over that. She apologized because his feelings were neither irrational nor shameful; she apologized, he accepted, they went home and snuggled… and then she had a nightmare, he went to get her some medication, and her drunk ex-boyfriend showed up and puked on the carpet. AustinC123 ‘Hoo, boy, if I could read my own mind right now I bet it’d say ‘mua-ha-ha-ha-haa” Flamma Man Just remember, Patrick, the asshole that he is, can be interpreting that in the worst way possible. Some guy He probably isn’t even interpreting it, which makes it better. That’s all direct from the Cevinator. Lostman Can someone get a picture of Patrick with a troll face? Dwight Williams I think we just got exactly that. Guancyto Funny story: even completely normal human behavior can sound absolutely awful if you put it in the worst possible light. Also, the better a person you are, the more likely you are to second-guess complete normal human behavior and worry that you might secretly be terrible (well, that and self-esteem). So no, Clevin’s not secretly a scumbag, but it seems so very… _Clevin_ to secretly be worried about it. Markus Clevin’s being a little too me_irl for me right now. spriteless I wonder if he’s heard angry stories about Al’s last roomie using Al’s popularity and strength for her own ends? And fears triggering Al. William Jones My wife and I used to play a game called ‘Creepy or Married’ – so many things sound utterly horrifying if they came from anyone other than your spouse. E.g. – “I saw we were out of milk, so I picked up some at the store.” “You’re so cute when you’re sleeping.” “Your alarm clock keeps waking me up.” etc etc Olivier Faure But none of this is creepy at all, even if you’re just roommates! Lysiuj “You’re so cute when you’re sleeping” would raise some alarms if it’s not youre SO talking… Lisa Izo I’ll let my neighbor know that he needs to stop telling me that. Lisa Izo “Your underwear belongs in the hamper, not on the floor.” Lisa Izo Clevin’s just lacking confidence in himself that someone normal like him would have anyone believing that he’s with someone like Alison. Sort of sad really, but understandable on his part. And mean Patrick just latched onto that insecurity of his and ran with it. Tsapki Keep in mind that this guy is a mind reader, so he can easily read what aspects of a person they have some feelings of guilt or concern about and then hammer hard on them. This would work on anyone, any of us here. If someone you barely knew could know all the little things you feel even a little ashamed of and just verbalize them to you out of nowhere, it would be absolutely terrifying. shink So to go to the opposite end of culpability on Clevins part: he got sick of people disbeleiving him when he said he was dating Mega Girl (which is both a normal thing to get sick of and a normal thing to find hard to believe), and so keeps pictures of her on his phone to defend his life story. Y’know, if I was dating Jennifer Lawrence I might have to do the same thing. So that’s all pretty mundane given the reality of the relationship. OTOH, if Clevin has fgured out that Patrick is just going to keep listing insecurities maybe he’s decided that right now is not when he wants to talk about said insecurities. Rando Nah, it’s still pretty skeezy. If you were dating JenLaw, why would it matter if random acquaintances believe you? Are you dating her for recognition of the act? Gotham It’s an odd thing how unforgivable you consider the simple act of requesting some amount of validation. It’s never humble, granted, but we can’t expect absolute humility in any and all circumstances from our humans. Rando It’s really not. These are essentially random people he is showing her off to, like a trophy. If you care what they think and have the need to prove it to them, for whatever reason. How about you set up a get together with everyone, so they can all meet, and you treat them like an actual person instead? Gotham …because Alison is extremely busy? I don’t know, sometimes you have to use a visual shorthand to explain things. When I tell people my parents are professors I am indeed reducing them to their work and it’s not the nicest of things to do, my parents are fully realized people with complex lives and a well of internal emotionality, but I don’t have the money to make them take the plane every time I’m presenting myself M. Alan Thomas II Those are not random people, according to Patrick. They are people he considers friends, but barely. And given that he’s clearly got some self-esteem issues and I’ve been there, I’m pretty certain that those are actually his friends and he’s just having trouble emotionally believing that they’re actually really his friends, just as he’s feeling like he’s practically a charity case in his relationship. A statement designed to exploit his irrational fears and anxieties is not reliable evidence. Lisa Izo Technicaly not ‘random people.’ They’re people he ‘barely considers friends.’ The Improbable Man How would you feel if you were in a normal conversation with someone, and your significant other came up, and you said “I’m dating [Your SO’s name here]” and nobody believed you? Rando I would question why I care, what people who instantly jump to the belief I am lying to them, think about me? These aren’t his friends, that he is trying to convince he isn’t lying. Stephanie What you’re describing is the ideal reaction, the way a hero in a children’s book would react in order to model the healthiest possible behavior to the readers. And sure, some people really would react that way, and maybe that includes you. But that doesn’t mean that anyone who falls short of that ideal is a bad person. Rando No, it’s merely not objectifying someone, and yes it does make him a bad person. I’m not saying he is worse than hitler, but it’s still a bad thing. Stephanie So you’re saying that anyone who would react to the accusation that they’re lying about their SO by showing proof is a bad person? Not just a person with flaws, but a bad person? No matter what else they do in their life, no matter how pure their motives otherwise are, they’re a bad person now because they did this one self-serving (but ultimately harmless) thing? It seems you’re saying the only possible way to be a good human being is to go, “Why, I suppose these people aren’t my friends at all. I have nothing to prove. I will smile wisely and walk away with peace in my heart.” Well, most people aren’t the Dalai Lama. If you’re going to label anyone who falls short of saintliness a bad person, you’re going to meet a lot of bad people in your life. Weatherheight Flaws are part of who we are indeed. One flaw makes you “not a good person” in an absolutist sense, but one virtue also makes you “not a bad person” in an absolutist sense. Most of us live somewhere in the middle (actually, I feel and think all of us live in the middle, but I’m hedging a little 😀 ). Preponderance of evidence seems a reasonable basis for judgment, but it’s also probably wise to leave a little wiggle room for grace and redemption. Debbie Jackson Agreed, and with the caveat that nobody said a good person had to be *wholly* so. A preponderance of good with two bad traits should still allow for a whiter hat than the average. It’s also a question of syntax. We tend to see “good people” as those who have a great proportion of goodness in them than the reverse, but “bad people” have to be significantly below the line to be considered so irredeemable. Chani And even the Dalai Lama struggles with anger issues, so I guess he’d be a “bad person” too. 😉 https://themighty.com/2017/06/dalai-lama-anxiety/ Humans are imperfect, and that’s okay. Christopher Brooks I agree with you about it being a bad thing but someone can have character flaws, even pretty sleazy ones, and not be a bad person. Unless a decent person has basically never existed. Coming from someone who doesn’t really think of himself as being a decent person. Arkone Axon I keep pictures of my dogs to show off. I have four of them. They are adorable. I love to share them with people, even casual strangers I’ve only just met. Showing proof that I have four adorable furry bundles is not the worst thing I’ve ever done. It’s not even the worst thing I did this week. Hell, it’s 11:37 AM when I type this, and if I’d been showing people pictures of my dogs it wouldn’t even be the worst thing I’d done this morning. Considering how easily Clevin’s self esteem gets pricked, if I were Alison I’d be posing for pictures and telling him, “THAT’S the one you show to people when they ask. And you let everyone know I’m yours – and more importantly, that you’re MINE.” Gotham You wouldn’t say things I already said if you read my comments, y’know David Brown Because if you saw yourself as not being unique or memorable, but were dating someone who was both, then you’d be special because they are and chose you. It’s common to see in relationships- someone bases their entire personality on the fact that they’re with someone else, and what that someone else is like or does for a living. Grayson Towler Hmm… we don’t know one way or another if people disbelieved Clevin or if he’s gotten sick of any kind of reaction. I don’t know that I can infer the same conclusion as you do from what we’ve seen. It’s possible… but it’s also possible that he brags and shows off the photos even if the other person doesn’t believe him. If one is to fault Clevin here, I think it’s not so much for the pictures, but for the way he panics and runs away. The reaction suggests a guilty conscience to me. It also suggests someone who doesn’t know how to handle conflict, and who is pretty insecure at bottom. This doesn’t make him “good” or “bad” to me. But it does mean he’s not ready for the realities of a relationship with someone like Alison if he’s so easy to spook. M. Alan Thomas II Yes, he probably feels guilty. Anxiety and self-esteem problems will do that to you regardless of whether or not it’s true. And yet insecure people who have trouble handling conflict* deserve love, too. You’re not going to get over being insecure if everyone keeps telling you that you’re too flawed to be in a relationship. *Especially with an extremely skilled antagonist like Patrick. Double especially against anyone who can also just ignore any attempt to be brave by exploiting knowledge of your secret, hidden fears and vulnerabilities because he’s not confined to reading people’s outward displays. Many people skilled in handling conflict would fail against that. Arkone Axon I do agree that he’s not ready for the realities of a relationship with someone like Alison. He has NO survival skills. He’s going to get stuffed into a fridge so deeply that Gwen Stacy and Alexandra DeWitt will be asking him to pass the grey poupon. Dean To me, the extremity of Clevin’s reaction suggests that he isn’t in the habit of showing the pictures around. It is clearly something that he feels guilty and ashamed about, which is why Patrick chose to attack him with it. Walter Patrick, still kind of a dick. MedinaSidonia Ohhhh… OK. So Patrick is just indulging in some trivial fun in the midst of his self-induced misery-to-obliterate-a-greater-misery. *Now* it tracks. Bauke “fun”. I think he just likes everyone else to be miserable too. MedinaSidonia Well, yeah. When one is that much of a mess, one’s idea of fun is destructive and self-destructive. Rando I think its more Patrick see’s Clevin as not a great person, and wants to get him out of Al’s life. And he is not a particularly good person to begin with, nor in a great state of mind so is going about it in a bad way. Beroli Patrick’s whole monologue is notably lacking in anything about Clevin being a bad person by the lights of Patrick’s well-developed and consistent moral sense. It’s all about how pathetic and meaningless Clevin is. Twisting what’s in the comic will work for using Patrick to bash Clevin in the comment section here, as it previously worked for using Max to bash Allison, but I hope you’re not expecting the comic to support the interpretation you’re insisting on any more than it did that time. Rando I think you glossed over the part where I said “Patrick see’s Clevin…” Weatherheight I upvote this post for using the phrase “Patrick’s well-developed and consistent moral sense”. “It can’t be! The sarcasm… it’s… it’s over 9000!” Lisa Izo To be fair to Clevin, it’s not about whether Clevin is objectively a bad person – he clearly doesn’t seem to be, and isnt presented that way at all. However, what it IS about is if Clevin thinks HE is a bad person in some way. And that’s where Patrick is capitalizing on – on some level, Clevin thinks what he’s thinking about the pictures on his phone is shameful, regardless of whether they are or are not. I got this insight by watching the Toxic Rick and Morty episode of Rick and Morty. Stephanie Patrick can read minds. If Patrick really thought Clevin was a bad person, he’d have actual reasons to think that and he’d have had something more substantial to throw at him than “you show off pics of your girlfriend.” David Gillon Picture them as a mouse, and a bored cat. Psile While Patrick’s monologue was certainly well written, I think that people have a certain amount of inoculation to this kind of blunt criticism of their beliefs. People tend to react defensively when their beliefs are threatened, such as optimism. They essentially ignore someone else when they feel something important to their identity is being threatened. It scarcely matters how cutting or insightful a monologue like this is, once you’ve triggered the defense mechanism you’re essentially talking to a wall. It’s why all the cutting, insightful criticisms of conservative politicians have no effect. It doesn’t matter if it is a nuanced, thoroughly researched think piece by Vox or a cutting insightful monologue by Colbert. The effect is the same, even when the information is presented by people who make their living being captivating. If Patrick truly wanted to destroy someone’s identity, he would ask questions under the guise of good intentions that slowly lead someone to a realization themselves. It is easier to convince people of an idea if they think it comes from themselves rather than being implanted, though some ideas are simply too entrenched to ever be uprooted. Perhaps that’s the blind spot in his own power. Like Allison said, Patrick can’t read his own mind. He doesn’t know if he’s being arrogant in assuming he can monologue people into thinking his way. Either way, if that doesn’t work uncovering embarrassing secrets is always a great plan B. It doesn’t matter if the secret is actually embarrassing. (Clevin has pictures on his phone of the girl he is currently dating. Big whoop.) It matters how Clevin feels about it, and Patrick’s ability to dig right into those insecurities is pretty brutal by itself. Stephanie And yet this is how Patrick chose to do it, and this is how Clevin did react. So I think we can conclude that Patrick’s insight into Clevin’s mind told him that Clevin is especially vulnerable to the direct, confrontational approach. He might use the more subtle approach you described on people who aren’t like Clevin. Weatherheight Speak to the audience before you, indeed. Anna I think your last point is the key here. That is, people ARE resistant to the blunt questioning of their beliefs, and a more identity-changing route WOULD be to go slowly, and sneakily…but Patrick’s goal isn’t to change Clevin’s beliefs, or destroy his identity. Rather, he’s doing something more akin to what he did with Alison – he’s simply stabbing them in their weak spots, and twisting the knife until they break. Less manipulative, and more cruel. He wasn’t trying to get Clevin to work for him, or trust him, he wasn’t trying to make Clevin evil. As Patrick has said in the past, he hasn’t really needed to ‘force’ people to do what he wants, even if he had the power to. If you can always say the right thing, force is unnecessary. Instead, he plays off deep-seated wants, needs, desires, hopes…or, in this case, he put voice to all those self-doubts, insecurities, vulnerabilities that Clevin had, hitting weak points ranging to “caring for others” to “worthy of Alison’s love/affection/attention” to the basic “I am important, and I matter.” Think about it – you probably know at least one such weak point that you personally have. Something that gets under your skin, or in your head, that can provoke fear or anger or, heck, even positive emotions like affection, far out of proportion to the action itself. You might know a few for your closer friends, too, whether they have a deep-seated fear of losing the person they love, or interacting with their parents gets them angry and frustrated, or they care far more than they let on about what other people think about them. The little things that somehow get through all your defenses, regardless of how thick the armor. With the ability to find them, and know just how to abuse them…as Patrick’s shown, it makes it all too easy to break someone. Happyroach So in short, Patrick wanted Clevin to go away, and he knew exactly the right things to say to make him leave. Arkone Axon “I’m very tired and my head hurts. Please go away.” That usually works. JeffH Or, maybe he was just trying to hurt Clevin. Maybe he isn’t in mastermind mode, saw someone with Alison, and lashed out. Olivier Faure > It’s why all the cutting, insightful criticisms of conservative politicians have no effect I know I’m being a dick, but why conservatives in particular? It’s not like they have a monopoly on being wrong or stubborn. But yeah, I agree; the previous page, with Patrick tearing down all of Clevin’s beliefs, and Clevin’s face going “Oh my god, how could I have been so blind all theses years?” strikes me as a little overdramatic and unrealistic. Dave M Next up on Strong Female Protagonist: Patrick kicks a homeless girls puppy, before getting the “Scraps of hope orphanage & bunny rehab” turned into a nuclear waste dump. Happyroach And then we have a debate about whether they were evil bunnies that deserved to be kicked, merging into a long argument about nuclear power. Stay tuned, true believers! Guilherme Carvalho “What did you do?” “Oh, I made punching me in the face so much easier.” Gotham “MY FACE NEEDS TO BE HURT AT REGULAR INTERVALS FOR AS OF YET UNCONFESSABLE REASONS AND THIS BED IS JUST TOO COMFY TO GET UP AND HUG THAT DOORFRAME AGAIN” Filthy Liar “Look, you knew I was a scorpion when you let me in. Of course someone got stung.” ukulady7 Right though? Why does Allison blindly give more trust to a known supervillain than literally anyone else Filthy Liar I mean, benefit of the doubt here, it could be that he has been using his powers to shape himself into the person she’d trust the most by reading her mind constantly. More likely though, it’s just because she is extremely bad at differentiating between people who are incredibly dangerous and people who are incredibly dangerous to me. Patrick falls into the former category but not the later. Some guy Boy Clevin, you’re going to have to cook a LOT of pasta to get out of this one. palmvos on what grounds is this Clevin’s fault? even Alison isn’t acting like its Clevin’s fault. That same guy Well first of all, Alison’s reaction is irrelevant, she only saw the results of the conversation and not its contents. Second of all, in order to maintain status of ‘technically right’, I’m going to pretend I meant that Clevin has to make up for his mild rudeness during his departure. Sure, you don’t need to do much to make up for that, but cooking pasta isn’t much either, so he’s going to have to do a lot of it. There, not only am I still technically right, but I’ve mocked Clevin’s behavior while doing so. If snarky commenting was an Olympic sport, I’d have received at least a 9.7 average. Arkone Axon He won’t have to make much pasta at all. Once Alison finds out what Patrick just did, she’ll be ready to make the pasta for Clevin. Using bolognese sauce made out of the pieces she tears off Patrick. Filthy Liar Yes, rendering Clevin an inadvertent cannibal would probably complete the trifecta as far as demonstrating to him that dating Alison isn’t a great idea. palmvos 1. you left out the East German judge. 2. you failed to notice that I referenced a common male perspective in cis relationships , where just about event that the woman does not like… is the man’s fault. Weatherheight I’m starting to wonder if Patrick has developed some sort of compulsion about his ability to manipulate others. Even given some of the very plausible reasons others have given for this assault on Clevin, this just seems cheap, mean, and pointless to me. I can run quite a few scenarios where this is part of a grand plan, but evidence up to this point doesn’t quite yet provide enough foundation on which to rest that narrative structure. Very interested to see how this fits into a larger scheme. damocles6 I suspect Patrick is jealous of Clevin to whatever degree. Patrick likes Alison but could never have a normal, healthy relationship like she has with Clevin. Lysiuj Alternatively, it’s less a compulsion and more a self-affirmation. He’s in pretty bad shape, physically and mentally, and he needs to feel like himself again. So he sees an easy opportunity to be “telepath who can see through your bullshit and tear you apart if he wants”, and he goes for it. It’s clumsy because he doesn’t care about being subtle right now, he cares about feeling good. Thomas M Hewlett Telepathic a-hole. Gluten Tag God, Patrick, stop being such a douche. MisterTeatime Honestly I think Clevin has found the best move for his situation. Patrick’s gonna Patrick; Alison’s gonna understand that that’s not Clevin’s fault. The question is: given that Clevin almost certainly knows neither of these things, how did he reach this decision? JohnTomato If Pat wanted the body freeze with lots of pain he should be beating on the liver. Right side of the body where the ribs end. If he desires oblivion then heroin would be his ticket. Considering he has nigh on unlimited access to all human knowledge his story needs a tweak or three. damocles6 It doesn’t have to be that Clevin is deeply disturbed by Patrick’s comment by itself, but it could just be that he’s suddenly realized he’s in the room with a mind-reader, and doesn’t want his mind read. It doesn’t seem like Alison ever mentioned Patrick’s powers to Clevin, which is kind of mean of her. Francisco I don’t think it’s mean. I suspect she either thought that it was Patrick’s secret and/or she didn’t want people to know who Patrick was. shereadstoomuch I really want to know what thought Clevin had to make Patrick roll his eyes like that 😛 *busily focuses on one potential moment of levity in amongst all the angst* Illiterate Intellectual Possibly no thought at all. Or maybe he was trying to think of some other platitude to cheer up Patrick with. Clevin’s a nice person, but I do agree with Patrick that he’s not the sharpest lightbulb in the toolbox. Ptorq Either Patrick deliberately lobbed a softball, or Clevin is even more saintly than he seems to be. Opus the Poet Technically he told Clev something he already knew. GreatWyrmGold I can’t decide if the phone thing is adorable, pathetic, or typical. It may well be at least two of those things. Danygalw I think it’s all of those things. Jshadow I think this comic is just pushing it now. What’s so embaressing in having pictures of your girlfriend on your cell phone and showing them to your friends? Or is it just pointing out to him how useless he is compare to everybody else of Ali’s friends? Gotham That’s only Clevin, not the webcomic. Only further context will tell what the webcomic thinks about this. Prodigal My guess is that Clevin still has some insecurities about the relationship, which in turn causes him to feel guilty for feeling insecure. palmvos its the mocking way its worded- ‘people you barely consider friends’ and ‘as unremarkable as you’ are jabs at his self esteem. its not that he has pictures of Alison on his phone so much as its the way that fact is being presented. and really…. go up to a woman who has children and ask her about them in more than a passing way…. how many times won’t you be shown pictures? try it with a grandmother…. it is very very normal to carry pictures of your SO with you. when i was young I recall picture exchange came fairly early on.this was before cell phones. Amelie For my first comment on this comic, I’ll offer a thought Patrick doesn’t seem to have had: What are your blind spots? It took you six years and Alison’s suggestion before you realized you can’t read your own mind, right? So there are things that are invisible to you – so invisible you can barely even trace their absence. Of course I don’t know what it’s like to see a person’s thoughts so maybe I’ve got this all wrong, but how sure can you be that what you see in there is the full picture? If there is, let’s say, an aspect of common human empathy that’s incomprehensible to you, if you’re looking at it from a bad angle or whatever, would you know? Basically how sure can you be that people are as bad as you seem to think? Gotham Oh, what a fascinating picture you describe. Patrick can’t read minds, he got the pop culture definition of what “reading minds” means and never stopped to question it. The silly comic book superpower existed far before him and when he started to “receive things” appearing in his head that corresponded to what characters like Charles Xavier were experiencing and defining as “mind reading”, he went along with it. He always thought it was the whole picture, how could it not be? Who would even think of a mind reading power that’s, like, 87% complete? That would make for terrible superheroes. I love this. (Also yay for first comment! I also started recently prompted by jerks to bring down and stayed because it’s fun, the more the merrier!) palmvos its possible. however Patrick is able to extract names, addresses and SSN’s from a mob of people who are not trying to fill out credit card applications. either that or he knew enough to lie about doing so. so what are Patrick’s blind spots? it seems odd that he hasn’t been able to track down the conspiracy. all he needs is to get close to one member and he’d know the next. even with a cellular organization Patrick should be able to unwind it. Jubal DiGriz Being generous to Clevin, one possibility is that he recognized that Patrick is a nasty fellow with a nasty power, and ran off in self defense. I was fully expecting to cut back to Clevin and see him broken or crying… Patrick is off his game, and maybe this gave Clevin more of a chance than he should have had. Also, something I didn’t see other folks comment on- Patrick knows exactly what Allison and Feral were talking about. Maybe there’s an outside chance this was him clearing the room so they could discuss things frankly, and without Clevin being aware he was being shooed away. Arkone Axon …That’s… another possibility I hadn’t considered earlier. It’s possible that Clevin’s not broken. It’s possible that he’s ANGRY. He stormed off to calm down so he wouldn’t start punching his girlfriend’s sick ex-boyfriend. Sterling Ericsson Honestly…I would totally do the same thing if I knew someone famous. I am not above bragging. I am sadly not humble enough to avoid such an activity. a person I love how Clevin wasn’t that fazed by Patrick’s speech. I sorta saw it coming. It didn’t seem to me like Clevin would be the kind of person to be fucked up by something like, while Patrick’s second attack seems like exactly the kind of thing that would fuck him up. Perfect interaction here, this comic is so well written. bryan rasmussen maybe patrick doesn’t really have any powers but is just really good and guessing stuff about people! bryan rasmussen I like to think he does the evil villain laugh ‘mua ha ha ha ha haa’ in a totally deadpan voice, so the question is ‘What did you do?” and the deadpan villain laugh is the answer, I did villain stuff of course! Kid Chaos Trolling the boyfriend, Patrick? That’s pretty low, even for you. 👿 palmvos I am happy. we have not had another ‘jump cut’ to skip these interesting conversations. so now we can debate snippets of actual conversation instead of making them up, Stephanie Gertsch Poor Clevin. It looks like he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Patrick wanted someone to toy with before falling asleep and Clevin happened to be available. If Feral had been left behind in the room, Patrcik would have messed with her, although she probably would have punched him instead of running out. I am kind of impressed that “Showing off gf photos because you’re mad at how everyone thinks you’re ordinary” is apparently the worst thing Patrick could find in this guy’s head. But Clevin being Clevin he’s felt an inordinate amount of guild over this minor weakness and will only feel worse at having it pointed out to him. Hiram Panel one – When your well structured withering deconstruction of someone’s mental foundation goes over their head and you end up needing to dig bedrock. Noah Nicholes I love how Clevin wasn’t destroyed from last page so Patrick had to attack Clevin’s low self esteem Victor von Jul I can’t help but read the last panel with voice of Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang Theory in my head 😀 IE Anyone else appreciate Patrick’s 4th-wall-knocking expression in panel 1? Guest I mean, that’s it? that’s really it? Clevin is so freaked out because Patrick pointed out that he does something perfectly normal and inoffensive? There’s no indication these pictures are even racy or embarrassing. What a absolute joke. I mean, if you look at it in a specific way, it could be just humiliating him by reminding him how worthless he is and how he needs to show off his girlfriend to prove that he’s not a total loser. Tim F After all this time, I assumed Patrick would unleash a grand plan right about now. Something about Alison’s kidnapping for Feral to undercut her positive image with the public and her friends…but he’s just being a petty dick. I expected more from someone who nearly engineered world domination.