What I mean is that the hymen can be stretched without damage. And since Feral is the size and shape of an adult woman and not a 14-year-old, it seems to be the case that her body can stretch relatively normally without regenerating.

There are a lot of people with misconceptions about the hymen and/or gross beliefs about virginity. Given your phrasing in your first post, it seemed likely that you were one of those people 😛

Your use of the words ‘virgin’ and ‘maiden’ while talking about it threw up some red flags. And since it’s quite easy to have penetrative sex without tearing the hymen, it didn’t really seem like much of an issue.

The possibility of her tearing/healing it all the time while fighting seems like it’d be much more relevant lol. That would be super irritating.

Jesus fucking Christ.

It wasn’t a great comment, no. A joke that fell somewhat flat, and probably didn’t come across quite the way he intended (in my opinion it started as a mildly funny observation and then misfired in the 3rd paragraph — he went on too long and went a little too far). That happens sometimes, to everyone.

The only reason he’s still talking about it is because OTHER people prompted him to continue the discussion. Saying that he’s demonstrated a “gross and creepy obsession” is unfair, and very rude and aggressive.

Your insinuation that he’s contributing (even unintentionally) to people “trying to control women” is even more inappropriate, and yes, you did insinuate that. It is generally a good idea to be aware of historical/political context when making off-color jokes (and he might be!) but nothing he’s said has done that, absolutely nothing.

You think you’re taking a stand on an important issue. And it certainly is an important issue, but in the here and now, all you’re actually doing is being a bully. It’s ugly.

Furthermore, it will do real damage to issues that you (and I, and hopefully all of us) care about. That’s not a possibility, it’s a certainty.

I am less “defending” it than I am taking issue with Tylikcat’s behavior. As I said, I don’t think it was an A+ comment either, and in any case, there’s a limited amount of time I’m going to spend talking about somebody else’s joke about a fictional superhero’s hymen. Even if I LIKED the joke, there would still be better hills to die on.

But OK. Let’s talk about it briefly.

Is it “gross as fuck” and creepy because of the language he used in the 3rd paragraph, or because making a joke about Feral’s hymen was inherently creepy?

And let’s be clear (this being addressed not specifically to you but to everyone reading this): that was a request for clarification on what you’re saying — your position — and not a request to please educate this poor ignoramus who has never once considered the sociopolitical context of jokes like that and has no idea why anyone might find them misguided.

A serious discussion about exactly how stretchy a comic strip character’s hymen is. Think about that. If your skin does not immediately crawl, you are part of the problem.

I usually wouldn’t even bother, but this is kind of a mix of sad and funny.

I’m not insinuating anything. I’m talking about both actual history and anthropology, which is what a lot of people on this thread are responding to. It sounds like people are talking across each other. I’m going to work on the assumption that you honestly don’t know a lot this stuff (and not just you!) as opposed to you (plural you) knowing this stuff and having decided that it doesn’t matter.

The original poster doesn’t have to be trying to control women. But as soon as you start cracking jokes about hymens and virginity, you’re hitting on some really sensitive territory, and for reasons that are actually important because it does trace back to controlling women for real, and are still somewhat part of the culture.

I can’t remember which anthropology class covered family organization at my university, and it would be different everywhere. But let’s talk about patrilineality, which is tracing descent through the male line (and is distinct from patriarchy, which is rule by fathers – and generalized to men – or patrilocality, which is where a new family resides with the husband’s kin.) Anyhow, just because of the mechanics of human reproduction, patrilineality is kind of messed up – you always know who the mother is. Why not just go with that? It’s simple and reliable. But if you really care who the father is, and especially if you don’t respect women (and a lot of these societies didn’t much) you get into a lot of situations where a large portion of women were sequestered and more or less treated like breeding stock, so that a man could be secure that his children were his own. (Keep in mind that in a lot of cases this was cast as keeping women safe and treating them with respect, but a cage is a cage.)

Meanwhile, of course, there were usually some group of women, usually lower class, who were sexually available to men in these cultures, because men need to get their freak on. (Less so when you’re dealing with village or tribal groups.) Can you understand why a lot of women find this stuff creepy as fuck?

And an obsession with virginity was part of that. And an obsession with hymens as markers of virginity (an obsession that often didn’t have much to do with the actual anatomy and how they really worked) was part of that. The idea that there was basically a tamper proof seal, so that you knew you were getting a totally fresh never before touched chick was super appealing – even if it was bullshit. And in many cultures, the idea that the first act of sex would hurt – a lot – and the woman would bleed – a lot – was seriously fetishized. (It still is. A lot of women will have run into men with creepy virginity fetishes. I certainly have. Seriously, the idea that a woman’s body – and maybe soul – can be fundamentally changed by a man’s penis is super appealing to a lot of men, but doesn’t bear serious scrutiny.)

Now, a lot of women just plain either don’t have hymen, don’t have a hymen that’s going to tear, or if it does tear, it’s not going to bleed much. I mean, we’re talking a tiny bit of skin. It just doesn’t, much of the time. In many cultures – in a lot of different part of the world, these weren’t isolated occurrences! – there was an expectation that on the wedding night the bride would be deflowered, and she would bleed and stain the sheet. And this would be checked, as proof of freshness (in some cases, the stained sheets were even publicly displayed, no joke. This might still happen?) So, grandmothers, aunts and mothers, trying to save their young relatives shame and punishment (and protect the family honor, and themselves) have in many cases resorted to small bladders filled with animal blood, increasing the mythology around hymens and bleeding. Keep in mind, women generally did not have equal stand in these households, and these was a pretty important defensive move.

So… we get to now, in the US. Hymens exist, but they are not a guaranteed freshness / virginity seal. They often are shed long before any sexual activity. And they never actually worked quite like they were rumored to work. A lot of guys hear stories about hymens that have more to do with a creepy past than women’s actual bodies, because the past isn’t dead, damn it all. (And honestly “virginity” as a thing is weird. I was never saving myself for anyone but me.)

It’s… well, it’s kind of like making jokes about slavery. Maybe to you it’s just a joke, but there’s a reason a bunch of folks jumped down the OP’s throat. For a lot of folks – particularly a lot of women – it’s serious “Oh, fuck no,” territory.

Thank you for this thorough response. Even though I don’t necessarily think the original poster had malicious intentions–and I don’t think you’re claiming that, either–their comment did carry unfortunate implications given this historical context, and it’s important for people to be made aware of that context. It simply isn’t possible to divorce casual jokes about hymen breakage from that history of male ownership and control over women’s sexuality.

nah I don’t think witches are that insensitive to birds any more

I’m in the camp of, once you hurt people, intentions don’t matter.

Or rather, if one’s intentions are entirely good one can prove that by listening and apologizing for real instead of making a bigger ass of oneself by being defensive.

I mean, I’ve done it myself. Both what Micah did and what Kai did (tho not on this topic), and the failure to see how their supposed defense makes them look a lot worse. It’s mortifying once we learn better.

This.

Ooh! Please link me when it’s out, I really want to read it!

And this is a good example of how jumping in in defense of someone who said something accidentally harmful, exacerbates the problem hugely and makes them think they have nothing to apologize for.