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I fully admit I was wrong on this one. I really thought that was was just a fake image of Mary kneeling made so Furnace would lob a fireball at the wrong person. Furnace acting dumb, however, is consistent as a train schedule. 😛 She didn’t need to trick him into lobbing fired everywhere at all! Furnice We’re in a damn dam Furnace! Graeme Sutton That’s kinda stretching the definition of Murderer. I mean Furnace and Mary sure but we’ve never seen Allison deiberately kill anyone without filling out necessary paperwork. Liz That’s because the comic started post-superhero days. I’ve no doubt that in the past there were biodynamics on crime sprees who met grisly deaths at her hands. Graeme Sutton Officers of the state using lethal force against dangerous criminals to defend themselves or others isn’t generally considered murder. Mechwarrior But Alison feels that she should be held to a higher standard than that. So she calls herself a murderer. Graeme Sutton Then why not call herself a rapist and con man while she’s at it? It wouldn’t make it true. Scar Man!!! eh? Nightsbridge …………..That’s a jump. A huge jump. It doesn’t actually fit the context at all imo. Graeme Sutton There was that one time she had a sexual fantasy about Patrick knowing he’d be forced to experience her thoughts. MisterTeatime If you’re referring to this page, that was ambiguous at best. Graeme Sutton Yeah, that’s my point. Rumble in the Tumble The thing is, there isn’t that many things that pose a threat to her. Anthony Jackson Yeah, but there are a fair number of things that pose threats to others. Guy she killed back in the Feral arc was using a flamethrower in a hospital. Graeme Sutton If she doesn’t actively defend herself, the number of things that can pose a threat to her skyrockets. And she wasn’t just defending herself. Classtoise Then it’s a case of “show, don’t tell”. We can only know what the author has told us. In this case, they’ve told us nothing of Alison killing people except the flamethrower guy (who was an imminent threat to innocent lives, thus her actions fall under “self-defense”; this is what governs people who are in no way threatened but help others who ARE) William Lancaster They’ve told us she’s killed at least once before. Her professor’s son was in a building that she hit with a robot. There is also a her rant to Carver here, http://sfp.nsch.co/issue-3/page-74/ She is stating that she does have a collateral damage body count and she knows it’s higher then one. MisterTeatime One correction: It wasn’t the professor’s son, it was his significant other. http://sfp.nsch.co/issue-2/page-45/ (Also, just noticed that the news clipping on the page before the one I linked refers to Marcus Houston as a physician, but also uses “Mr.” to shorten his name. If he was a practicing physician, it should be “Dr.” instead.) William Lancaster Huh, you are right. I remember the Doctor as being younger so I assumed it was his son. That’s what happens when you read too fast I guess. Liz In chapter 3 page 74, Allison says, “No SHIT I’ve killed people.” From Mary’s admission in chapter 5 page 46, we can infer that these killed people are terrorists and other criminal biodynamics, who were killed by the Guardians “without jury or trial”. Killing someone for wrongdoing is a very big deal, and putting that power in the hands of someone just because they have magic powers is ethically dubious at best. Some of these people with a carte-blanch on killing criminals are sexist, racist asshats whose names rhyme with Burnace. But even putting that power in Allison’s hands – when she’s demonstrated that instead of breaking flamethrower-guy’s arms and letting him stand trial, her passionate nature leaves her liable to murdering him in the heat of the moment instead – is not ok. All of these biodynamics are flawed, biased people. The justice system may be slow and often biased as well, it controls for these prejudices and flaws far better than any individual person can. What Mary is doing is murder. What Furnace did at the start of the chapter is murder. What the Guardians did had *some* ethical grounding, in that neither the justice system nor the military was equipped to deal with dangerous biodynamics when they started coming out of the woodwork, and they might’ve gotten government approval for some of their work. But still, at best we’re in a gray area. Nomac Reread the Feral arc. She kills the flamethrower guy and proceeds to threaten to kill every last protester at the hospital. Tsapki Are we just forgetting the time she thre a robot through a hospital and killed a doctor? Ian Osmond Legally? Not murder. Morally? Well, her professor certainly felt like it was. And he seems to have convinced Allison, too. Ian Osmond Sure, but not beyond the bounds of “rhetoric I’m yelling at a guy who might kill us all, in order to maybe keep him from killing us all.” MisterTeatime Yes. Regardless of her reasons for having killed people, she’s arguing in self-defense. 😛 (At least, under the not-perfectly-intuitive legal application mentioned here) Ian Osmond In general, you’re right. “Murder” is a legal term, which means “a particular kind of unlawful homicide.” In general, a murder is what society says it is, and isn’t what it says it isn’t. I could point to particular examples of things which I think are MORALLY murder, but, because local laws eventually found them to be either not illegal, or not fitting the specific definitions of murder in that jurisdiction, the perpetrator ISN’T a murderer. I’m not going to name them, since they are contentious and lead to flamewars. And rightly so — many people consider these people murderers and that the laws that permit it are unjust, and many others feel that the laws are reasonable and necessary and therefore the people who take those acts are justified, and that’s a gap that is hard to bridge, and which people SHOULD feel emotional about. Alison is probably a manslaughterer, at best. Most of her kills were justifiable and lawful kills in self-defense or defense of others; others were collateral damage. And, since “murder” is a legal term, you can argue that, no matter what a person did or did not do, they’re not a murderer until a jury says they are. Jeff W Maybe she was thinking about her Professor’s husband? From way back in Issue 1? Graeme Sutton Accidental death, in the course of direct defense of herself and others, while acting under lawful orders as a military/police officer. Rumble in the Tumble An -easily preventable- accidental death, if only she weren’t having too much fun throwing giant robots around. She didn’t want it to happen, but the blood is on her hands, and it doesn’t help sleeping at night. ApostateltsopA She would gladly have killed the protestors at the hospital had she not been stopped and her conversation with Cleaver indicated she thinks about killing people a lot. She may not technically be a murderer, we don’t have enough information to know, but she could certainly see herself as one. Pol Subanajouy I know, right? Pretty scary. Pol Subanajouy He’s dedicated to craft. Johan Got to give him that, at least. Pol Subanajouy I’m guessing getting a confession from him was more a priority for her than any of us realized? Pol Subanajouy Could have been? I don’t think Mary knew about Chris’s flames getting even stronger, but she could certainly bank on his winning personality and cool head to get a reaction like this. Ralph, the Dire Opossum Are they getting stronger? I think that given that he hand to set a whole compound on fire to melt bullets (which he used to be able to do without creating a big flame) I think he’s actually weakening… Although, that is inconsistent with everybody else’s changes (I wonder what’s happening to Mary, and the others we don’t know about). Pol Subanajouy Well from his perspective at least it is getting stronger. He said, “I feel like I’m getting more firepower. It’s just hard to control.” http://sfp.nsch.co/issue-5/page-122/ Mind you, Furnace being wrong here subjectively could also be a thing, I guess. Like he isn’t getting more firepower and he’s just losing control. Not sure. masterofbones I’d go with serial killer really. Murder and torture beats pretty much any other crime out there. Toby Yasutake Like this! http://www.talesfromthevault.com/thunderstruck/cover001.html Steele Not so. As a meta human who had received government supervision and training, she is presumably capable of disarming and subduing a suspect without killing them. Granted her actions were not premeditated, but the idea of a super strong, invincible person killing whoever they want without any way to stop them is very scary. Graeme Sutton She might have, but if shed taken the extra time required or risked him escaping she would have been potentially endangering and she’s not killing any one she wants, she killed one person who had just murdered several innocent people and posed a clear and present danger to others if he wasn’t stopped immediately Ian Osmond Why? She was trained as a child soldier, not a police officer. And, well, most US law enforcement aren’t given that much training in nonlethal takedowns, anyway. Steele Hmm, let’s put it this way: If YOU were the one training potential future super heroes (or at the very least, helping out those who have little control of their abilities), would you train them JUST to kill, or would you make sure they knew how to reign it in so that every single encounter doesn’t end up with the opponent being little more than a smear of blood? We get mad enough when a cop shoots someone. How do you think people would react to Alison automatically killing everyone she punches? Ian Osmond It’s not like they had a huge body of knowledge on “how to train child soldiers with superpowers to avoid collateral damage.” They were making it up as they went along. And they WEREN’T thinking of them for policing. Which is good, because most of ’em would make terrible police — just like most of US would make terrible police. I don’t know this, and I don’t know if anybody’s even ever studied the question, but my feeling from what I know about history is that you can make almost anybody into a more-or-less tolerable soldier (not necessarily a GOOD one, but a not-useless one), but there are fewer people you can make into decent police officers. I mean, plenty of countries have universal conscription into their militaries, and the average conscript is nowhere near as good as their professional core, but they’re still basically useful. But I don’t know of any country that conscripts their law enforcement. MisterTeatime We do not get nearly mad enough when a cop shoots someone. Scar Man!!! Hell, she’s said she’s scared of/annoyed by that fact in the past, herself. The police just honestly don’t think they could stop her doing anything she wants. Ian Osmond The police just honestly KNOW they couldn’t stop her doing anything she wants. Remember when she ATE that cop’s gun? Lucy What I think is interesting about this is, it seems like Alison considers herself a murderer, regardless of what people broadly / generally consider murder. It’s a sign of good writing, I think, in that is really captures how people conceptualize themselves, and can easily hold contradictory beliefs about their own person. Alison believes herself to be a murderer. She also believes that she’s a good person, and she clearly doesn’t think she ought to stand trial or anything. Which might lead some to say that she’s just *saying* that she identifies as a murderer to sooth Furnace, but I suspect she really thinks of herself that way. She holds everyone to a high moral standard, including herself, a standard where killing the flamethrower guy is murder. But she still believes in her own goodness enough to intervene in these situations. Walter She’s above the law. The law is our will made manifest. Ultimately it manifests as men with guns. It only binds those the state is more powerful than. No cop or team of cops can arrest Alison. Further, what would be the point of a trial for her? If 12 normals decided she had to go to jail, what would that do? She’d still only go if she felt like it, and only stay if she felt like it. Covered this in the arc where she visited the monstrous dude in confinement. While she was wallowing in jail Mary would continue her slaughter, whatever power Menace fears would continue its manipulations. Is sitting in a cell the best thing she can do? What does it serve? Flamethrower dude won’t come back if she feels bad about it, and even if he could she’d just have to kill him again. 3-I Furnace has been shown to care about innocent lives in the past! ESPECIALLY when he feels personally attacked and when people he hates are trying to stop him! Yeah, we’re losing the dam. Walter Yeah, he’s going to blast this thing apart. lizasweetling he did react to feeling responsible for probably killing a bunch of folks though… it’s something… 3-I hah, collateral DAMage masterofbones God Dam it. Kid Chaos Dam the torpedoes, full speed ahead! motorfirebox “I always wondered who would win in a fight between us, Mega G—” *whump* “I never did.” lizasweetling depends is he intangible when he’s fiery, or just really hot? Johan I dunno, with all the water there is around, anything he does could potentially work against him anyway Insanenoodlyguy Depends. He’s obviously got a heat immunity, and presumably his system can handle less oxygen since he’d be burning it all up around him. He might not be able to make as much fire with all the water in the room, but superheated steam isn’t exactly better. Mary’s going to be pretty dead even if she boils instead of burns. UnsettlingIdeologies Flash boiling water can actually cause a pretty massive explosion. And if he gets hot enough to split the water molecules (about 3000 degrees celsius), then there’s a bunch of hydrogen to combust as well. Hell, if he produced enough energy he could theoretically fuse the hydrogen atoms releasing massive amounts of energy. Daniel Vogelsong He is just really hot. If you recall his actions in the compound, he had to flame out the entire building “to melt the bullets”. If he could just become a living body-less flame, that would not be required. Some guy His powers are changing, as he stated his bullet melting didn’t used to explode like that, so whatever “rules” we thought he had aren’t as established as previously believed. motorfirebox It’s perfectly in keeping with her past actions. In every case but one (the judge), we’ve been shown that Moonshadow went and collected evidence/proof of the rapist’s actions herself, before killing them. And with the judge, she may have been targeting him for his ruling rather than what he may or may not have done with his own daughters. Scar Man!!! Also, he was an abusive husband and father, and she probably saw that. OldLion Also, there were no reasons for Mary to suppose Alison would show up when she put that explosive belt on Furnace. She probably had it put as the only way to restrain and interrogate Furnace. So everything is going haywire from her point of view, and she has been improvising since Alison arrival. Opus the Poet Except those mercs were charged with mass rape and the charges dropped when no witnesses came forward to testify and all the physical evidence was destroyed (by the mercs, but again no way to prove that). Opus the Poet He is coming out from under some really strong drugs, so probably not completely rational now. Tsapki Regarding the mercs, didnt we get a news bit that while they were still in the U.S. Armed Forces, they apparently raped a female soldier in their unit? dbillian4 Shortly after she killed the mercs we were shown a news report clip that showed they had in fact been accused of raping their female teammate. http://sfp.nsch.co/issue-5/page-51-3/ Pol Subanajouy We will see, I guess. Mary is nothing if not motivated at playing a good shell game when stuck in a room with two other people with VERY dangerous and straightforward powers. Pol Subanajouy Good point. I thought she was still using heroic will power to force the cable up, but now that I look at it, she seems to be handling it just fine. lizasweetling I think the sweater just got crisped because it was no longer protected by plot modesty armor and got hit with electricity straight from a hydroelectric dam. also, she’s busy, pain can be later. Graeme Sutton We haven’t seen any proof he’s a rapist, and it’s possible she was concerned that his power might have kicked in reactively and killed her in the process. Graeme Sutton The Mercs were rapists, it was mentioned in a news report after the fact. Clare Lane It’s almost like she wasn’t there JUST to kill him and had no intention of killing him until she has interrogated him. Weird? She doesn’t want to kill the people downriver who would probably get wiped out by the Dam failure is my guess. It’s almost like Mary is possibly a bit more thoughtful in her murder than just kill kill kill. She is trying to make a point, that’s why she went public with her kills. It shows that mere death alone isn’t her goal. Ian Osmond She just sodium petathol’ed him. It’s possible that she discovered that he’s NOT a rapist. Or something like that. Ian Osmond To be fair, I’m not really thinking clearly when I just wake up, and that’s even WITHOUT being tased and drugged. Bandersnatch Hot dam! Johan nice 🙂 Jeremy I know the signs are subtle, but I’m picking up hints that Furnace might have impulse control issues… Iarei Don’t worry guys, the dam won’t be hurt. Furnace only incinerates the meaty social elements out of a structure, he doesn’t harm the structure itself. Mary can just disguise herself as a stack of boxes, so she’ll be all right. Francisco I can’t for the life of me work out if you’re being sarcastic or not. Just in case you’re not, just remember that he get hot enough to melt bullets before they reach him. Iarei The comment is recalling the last time Furnace used his powers indoors. http://sfp.nsch.co/issue-5/page-121/ I’m not sure ‘sarcastic’ is exactly the right word for it, but the post is not serious. I thought I made that evident by implying that Mary could fireproof herself with the illusion of boxness. Mechwarrior I think she has to make an illusion of herself dressed as Snake to do that. Iarei She could have causally tossed it over the rafters and/or be telekinetically floating it towards Furnace’s skull. I’ve given up on trying to figure the action in this, and I just kind of assume half of what I’m seeing is illusory. Walter Super power makes her tough, right? Only time we’ve seen that lapse is when she was flying. Ralph, the Dire Opossum I think she might have gotten hurt while flying because the damage came from an internal source/from Al herself. Just a thought. On the other hand, given how biodynamism is changing (Al’s new flight, Furnace’s weakened, yet larger, flames, Daniel’s sharper claws), who knows. Walter It is certainly puzzling. Remember, she cut Alison’s throat without a second thought. But she was desperate that Furnace not blast himself, desperate enough to risk her life for it. They don’t seem to fit with her previous image (based on which she should have been casual with Furnace’s life and needed a lot of provocation to oppose Alison). If I’m guessing, she’s completely desperate, and hates Alison with the force of a thousand suns. Alison, who was already invincible and almighty, has just revealed that she can fly. Great. Thanks, God, I needed that. And somehow she found her here. How did that happen? (Remember, Mary doesn’t know about the Menace/Alison connection) Maybe she also gained “Locate Any Person” as a power. Its as reasonable as suddenly being able to fly. Alison can find her wherever, travel anywhere at incredible speed and win any fight. That’s game set match. Slashed Alison’s throat because if she can’t kill Alison she’s doomed to die crushed in her fists within a few days. That fails, so she’s done for. Illusions can only hold her off for so long, Alison will soon smash her like an ant. Only way out is to change the narrative. Thus the talk. Furnace (the chump she kidnapped) is the real villain here. Patriarchy! He’s probably a rapist. We are basically the same. Its just a rapid fire spew of anything that might persuade Alison to not kill her. Last chance is when Furnace wakes up. She goes for the save, because that might change this super thug’s mind, which is at this point the only way she lives out the hour. Fighting can’t get her anywhere, maybe some sort of symbolic gesture or something will save her? Can’t hurt (since fight with Alison is guaranteed death), and bomb will hurt less than Alison tearing her apart. Not the best theory, but its really really hard to explain what Mary could be thinking. Rumble in the Tumble If you were right, she would react to all the “Yo Mary, I don’t wanna kill you, I’m here to fix all this shit somehow” some other way than “YOU’RE NOT EVEN A REAL HUMAN BEING, ALISON” Nightsbridge I am fairly certain the slice on Mary’s part was driven in no small part by the beef she has with All. Perlite DAM IT, FURNACE! motorfirebox Furnace don’t give a dam. Perlite Mary gives too much of a dam. Francisco Given how close Alison is to Mary, Alison should be be able to feel her. Kittenbot Doomypants Despite everything Mary’s done, Alison’s still protecting her. This is why I like her. Rumble in the Tumble But he’s completely justified in starting the fire. Just look at Alison, all trying to grab his prize. Verdant_Samuel Right? I actually clapped out loud for this one Rumble in the Tumble Now, for something completely different, a few questions: 1. How a mobile raging fire that is Furnace can even damage a concrete, moist (and delicious) dam? In a way that disappearing stairs and randomly cut power cables can’t? 2. Is this dam even operational? Everything looks old and abandoned, there are doors leading to story-high drops, workers are nowhere to be seen… what kind of a rinky dink dam is this? 3. WHY ARE THEY IN A DAM? If Mary doesn’t want to blow it up, then why would they be having this torture session/fight in a random abandoned dam? The only possible reason is the dam being a failsafe to Furnace blazing it, since there’s plenty of water everywhere to put him out, but as we can see, it’s not going to be that easy. Either everyone are playing with the Stupid Ball here, or there’s some reaaal elaborate keikakus to be pulled out of a butt. masterofbones >How a mobile raging fire that is Furnace can even damage a concrete, moist (and delicious) dam? He has enough heat to vaporize(melting wouldnt be enough) bullets before they hit him. That kind of heat is INSANE. Im pretty sure he could do some crazy damage. Walter MasterofBones has the right of it. When heat like that is generated it isn’t a matter of setting things on fire. They vaporize. He can destroy pretty much any matter by simply heating to “bullet vaporize” temperature and walking through it. Even Alison might not be safe (2 unknowns clashing in his temp vs. Alison’s invincibility.) Rumble in the Tumble Well, last time he blazed it, the whole house spew fire, and yet it was left standing, without much visible damage to the closest walls. That’s why I’m wondering why he’s such a -horrific- threat to an abandoned dam, when we already had busting water pipes and cutting cables around. masterofbones True, and actually someone pointed out that there were unburnt cardboard boxes next to the skeleton of the person he roasted. So I don’t even know. I think he has as much firepower as the plot requires. Classtoise “So are you! And so am I!” “Wait, I’m confused. Which of the three of us has actively sought out and killed people, having had the express purpose and cause to end a persons life for reasons that don’t include self defense or defending someone in immediate danger?” “Well-” “So no. No SHE is a murderer.” motorfirebox Er, Furnace did exactly that just a few pages ago. Happyroach There’s implication here that Alison has done that as well. And honestly, Allison killing anyone would rarely qualify as self-defense. William Lancaster Furnace is implied to have hunted down people as well when he is first introduced. He’s called a murderer by a bystander and that the people he killed were legal immigrants. Classtoise Let’s ask the girl who cut a huge cord of cables to electrocute her ex-friend. Some guy If she doesn’t answer, let’s ask the girl that throws giant robots at hospitals! Anthony Jackson Possibly that she didn’t want him blowing up while she was in the room? Both Furnace and Alison might have survived that, but Mary certainly wouldn’t. Though I don’t get the point of the explosive vest in the first place. Ian Osmond Moonshadow IS a serial killer, by the usual definition — three or more instances of killing, separated by a cooling-off period (which is the distinction between a “mass killer”, who kills three or more people in a single ongoing session, and a “serial killer”, who kills three or more people at different times). lizasweetling Can Alison be strangled? It wouldn’t have to break the skin, just depress it for a while. Of course, it’s probably moot because she could always break whatever or whomever is trying to strangle her. Mechwarrior Typically, characters with her level of invulnerability and strength have muscles that are so hard that in order to put enough pressure on her neck you’d need to be about as strong as she is to succeed. shereadstoomuch Since she was able to strangle Cleaver, I’d say yes. Jeremy On top of Furnace’s other shortcomings is his lack of good sense. As far as we know, Allison is all but invulnerable – so Furnace might not be able to hurt her at all. But she could certainly hurt him if she wanted to. Zmm Good call on who to protect there.. though I wonder if you could have leapt up there and smacked furnace a good one.. Though I’m not sure if moonshadow could live through this even with you blocking. Unless you’vel earned to extend protection field like superman does. Walter Very hard to explain what Mary is thinking. Maybe she thought the bomb would kill everyone in the room? Walter Well, she can always kill him, presuming that his heat can’t damage her. Even for Alison though, showing up to save Mary from becoming a killer by killing her victim would be a wake up call. Walter At this moment, Moonshadow is worse. She has killed “way more” than dozens. She’s a living plague, Ebola has probably taken fewer lives. That said, this comic is still ongoing. No reason Furnace can’t climb the evil stairs. His power set and attitude make this rookie a promising contender at the Murder-lympics Catherine Kehl Ebola death count is well over 10,000, last I checked. Moonshadow seems to be pretty specific in her killing – I doubt she’s have *time* to find that many people to kill and then do the deed, even assuming a very low standard of research. (And from what we’ve seen so far, she does seem to have standards, even if you think what she’s doing is awful.) Walter Oh, I didn’t realize how many people Ebola had killed, I put Moonshadow’s tally at high 3 figures, maybe slightly over a thousand if she’s been busy. She’ll need to up her game to compete with diseasese. Visit a prison? Furnace, by constrast, is probably chumping it up with a couple of dozen kills. MisterTeatime Her arm healed; electricity happened around the same time. Or: her arm never stopped working, it just started hurting like hell, and when things escalated she stopped caring about that. Or: this may prove to be a fatal weakness! Johan Haha XD I could totally see that happening Johan Now that would be a cute trick 🙂 Johan She ate the rubber demon fruit XD Insanenoodlyguy This. Moonshadow’s plan was to REVEAL the crimes she’s sure Furnace has committed and broadcast that. If he exploded then and there, all she’s done is some saw-esque grisly killing of a hero a lot of people still admire, and even those who didn’t wouldn’t be coming over to her side of things in droves. If anything she’d have to destroy the video at that point (assuming this isn’t all happening on a live feed). masterofbones Really? The alt text confuses me. Aren’t all of their kills comprised of white men(and therefore similar for the purposes of discrimination)? And if it isn’t a discrimination joke, why would appearance matter to him? Liz Furnace had zero problem dispatching several members of the drug cartel earlier in this chapter, without due process or trial by jury. But another biodynamic kills white American rapists who come from a background like his? Murder! Murder most foul! Some guy Well, there was a black guy on that mercenary team, for whatever that’s worth. TheGonzoMD . Furnace reminds of the fable of the scorpion and the frog. Except the scorpion is just really fuckin’ stupid. Some guy Actually, he wasn’t. The big reveal afterwards was that his ‘destroys bullets’ power isn’t supposed to do that. He can’t be blamed for the rules getting changed on him. His only real failure was improperly clearing the compound. Some guy No, that was someone else who vaguely resembles Mary Thomas Chappell If he’d done it a minute ago, Furnace would have been confused. But now, he’s just an a**h*le.