I think you’re missing an important point. Clevin wants the relationship. he’s been hovering around Alison for months, he knows the risks of being around her, he knows she’s rebounding from Max and she told him her life was complicated right now. And Clevin still wants her.

You keep saying she should deny herself to Clevin. That’s treating him as a child incapable of assessing risk for himself. He knows the situation, he still wants to go ahead. It’s his decision to make.

WRT seeking help and locking herself away as a nun while she does so. No. There’s a major part of the population who deal with psychological and other health issues on a daily basis and who will never stop having to deal with them. Should they be denied a full social life because of that? The UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with a Disability is fairly adamant they should not be, that it is a basic human right for someone with psychological or other health issues to have the same right to a loving relationship and participation in society as everyone else.

I think it’s important to note here that Alison is still working through her issues and is not yet at a stage where disclosure would be useful or straightforward. She hasn’t had any formal diagnosis, presumably because her set of experiences are seen as so extraordinary that one-on-one guidance was considered the better option by the government agency that treat their supers less as people and more as potentially malfunctioning tools of public order. And for herself, she has demonstrated some self-awareness of a serious anger problem and frustration with the world as it presently stands – but has chosen to take peaceful and positive steps to improving that tendency ever since becoming aware of it, by putting herself in a position to learn the nuances of ethical behaviour from the people she’s started to become frustrated with.

This isn’t an attempt at apologism for her actions so much as an explanation of why she might not consider the current state of affairs to be worthy of acknowledgement as an ongoing, serious or permanent problem – because she believes she’s already fixing the issue, she isn’t considering the damage that could be done in the meantime, and therefore is basically in denial.

“Actually”… XD
But hey, I’m glad you agree!

However I feel like your reading of the situation is far more untenable and inevitably damaging than mine. You see Alison as an alcoholic, someone trapped by an overwhelming and permanent personality defect who cannot improve without treatment; I see her as someone struggling with emotional issues and a lack of coping skills (since she was never led to believe that she needed any and had very few curbs on her behaviour). So I believe Alison actually does have it in her to succeed with Klevin and with her current endeavours despite receiving no specific professional help, just as some people through self-care or concerted research and effort or plain good fortune do manage to cope with their conditions undiagnosed in the real world (and thus be stuck with the label ‘high-functioning’ when they finally do get a diagnosis). It’s not common or likely and it’s probably not the easiest scenario for her to handle but she does seem to have the potential to be one of the semi-fortunate few.

It’s a shame she’s not working more focusedly on herself instead of trying to take on several enormous projects at the same time, of course. That’s a very reliable recipe for failure. But I get the impression that at least some level of Alison’s coping methodology and even her self-care thus far is to succeed at helping others and thus feel better about herself and her place within their world, so it might not completely backfire. For me, the jury is out as to whether this will be a Good or Bad Thing; I’m looking forward to finding out in-universe.

We don’t disagree here – as said before the main difference I can see between our perspectives is that I read Alison as already working on the problem. Not perfectly, and her focus could definitely be better, but not as loosely as someone who thinks they just need to “tone it down a bit for a few weeks” either. Her actions are more like those of the alcoholic who has already been deliberately abstaining from drink for several months now, despite some slip-ups resulting in the occasional bender, and is now taking a directed class on temperance and self-control. She’s not going to AA yet or fully exploring the roots of her issue with a proper psychologist but she is attempting direct self-improvement and talking to a ready ‘listening ear’ when she finds one (whether that’s Daniel, Patrick, the government-sponsored general physician, etcetera). I’m of two minds when it comes to whether her problems are innate or simply a result of being in the environment you describe above to the exclusion of all else, and along with seeing slightly more progress being made, that raises my estimation of her chances with Clevin from “almost negligible” to “a toss up”.

Well, in the case of the guy needing dental work… he was not exactly an intelligent person. He spent a few years in prison after being arrested for stealing a car… and he was caught because he got sleepy and took a nap in the driver’s seat WHILE STILL IN THE MIDDLE OF HOTWIRING IT.

In the case of the guy with the scalp wound… that man happens to be extremely intelligent, but he’s also a victim of the rigidly established gender roles and sexist bullshit that Emma Watson has pointed out hurts both men and women. Bleeding scalp wounds after falling off a ladder are things you walk off, because Real Men(tm) never show a reaction to pain, fear, or sadness. (It really pisses me off because I love him very much, and it hurts to see him in pain but just soldiering on and pretending it’s perfectly normal and fine)

I think it’s a bit too early to make assumptions about what she will or won’t tell Clevin. We’ve only seen them together for two panels on their first date. She might tell him of the risks involved on the next page, or at the end of the date, or not at all, but it’s too harsh to judge her for not texting “Hey. Did you know that dating me might put you in horrible danger?” or something. In the recent past we’ve seen her being honest and upfront with Clevin about being in emotional turmoil; this was before being threatened by Max’s mom, by the way. I hope that sort of honesty will be her way going forward.

I completely agree with you that it would be selfish of Alison to engage in a relationship without making Clevin aware of her issues and the dangers involved in associating with her (though I also disagreed at length about Alison herself being dangerous to him, rather than her enemies). I just don’t agree that it is 100% certain that this is the sort of relationship she intends to pursue. I think being upfront with him about what dating her might entail for him, and allowing him to choose whether he’s willing to take those risks to be with her – an approach which I understand from your post you apply yourself – would be more fair towards them both than deciding for him.

She shouldn’t be on that first date in the first place. In the previous 48 hours she physically assaulted/tortured/threatened/kidnapped her ex-boyfriend, broke down sobbing in the park, had a hard but important lesson provided by Gurwara (the guy who others have been quick to demonize because “Alison doesn’t like him – HE’S A VILLAIN!”), and attempted to make amends with her victim only to find out he’s gone into hiding with his life permanently derailed because of her, and his powerful and well connected mother has just lain down the gauntlet. Alison needs the following:
Psychotherapy from someone qualified to treat potentially dangerous and abusive individuals seeking to change their ways;
Legal counsel from someone qualified to advise her regarding the incoming storm of problems she’s about to suffer courtesy of a very, very, very pissed off parent;
Some time to squirm in her shame. She done goofed. She done goofed BADLY. She needs to own it, accept it, and come to terms with it. Only then can she do what Feral did when she went from “murderous vigilante” to “most benevolent and heroic individual in the setting.”

Did you really just suggest that seeking therapy and treatment for mental health issues is “punishment?”

Or are you simply suggesting that taking the time to come to terms with having kidnapped and tortured her ex-boyfriend is a waste of time, as opposed to blaming the victim, rationalizing it away, and refuse to ever accept personal responsibility in lieu of immediate gratification?

Yeah, that would be the “taking time to come to terms” bit. Shame. Shame is what you feel when you have done something wrong. What Alison did was very very very wrong. She now has the choice of running from that truth, of rationalizing it, blaming the victim, twisting things in her head so she was justified and fuck Max and yadda yadda… or she can thoroughly take the time to accept how evil her actions were, so that she can work to prevent it from happening again. And squirming in shame is a key part of that – to look at the evil, to say “I did that,” to feel sorrow and shame and remorse. To REPENT.

And I say that as someone who has wallowed in a LOT of shame. Someone who has, on more than one occasion, felt like a total heel. And rightly so. Not only because I deserved to feel ashamed, but because by doing so, by facing the shame, by repenting of my mistakes and misdeeds, I was able to grow and improve and not repeat them. Even today I squirm when I remember some of those things… and I never, ever, ever want to stop squirming. I never want to escape the memory of those mistakes, because they help me to be better for those around me, for those I care about.

And – as I’ve stated repeatedly in these comments – I understand mental heath issues, and being in a relationship while having said issues. And I understand that what Alison is doing is selfish, stupid, and immature. Especially since her last two romantic interests both ended up on the receiving end of physical violence at her hands.

(And the reason why I don’t want to see Alison “punished” is because she at least admits that she was abusive and vile and that it’s not okay to get violent because someone said something upsetting. Imagine her echoing that husband that Moonshadow killed. “What did you just say?”)

I have explained myself. Repeatedly. She’s not only exposing Clevin to the dangers of being stuffed into a fridge as a superhero’s lover, but she’s also exposing him to the dangers of provoking someone who has repeatedly been physically abusive towards her romantic partners.

Furthermore, she’s just gotten through a very rough and emotionally/psychologically intense few days. What she is doing to Clevin is really not much different from a male hero fulfilling a fan’s dreams by taking her for a one night stand. Yeah, the girl’s going to be thrilled that this is happening – but the hero ought to know better. And Alison ought to know better.

And she did NOT face them. She had a quick epiphany… but she’s done yet. Psychological growth and recovery requires TIME and WORK. I speak from personal experience – and I’m referring to both the “established behavioral patterns that need to be modified” variety, and the “finding a workaround to bypass neurochemical imbalances” variety.

(also, trying to avoid shame is extremely unhealthy. She not only has to live with the fact that she completely destroyed and derailed Max’ life, that he just gave up his family, friends, schooling, hobbies, favorite restaurants and recreations in order to avoid a violent superpowered stalker, she has to live with the fact that she JUST DID THAT. This isn’t shame about something she did five years ago, this is shame about something she did to a guy who hasn’t finished unpacking his stuff in his new living space far far away from everything he ever loved in order to avoid Ms “Whenever I want to come back and torture you into doing what I want again, I will.”)

“Those were some pretty extraordinary circumstances in which she was abusive with them.”

That’s how it usually is, yes. Most abusers generally don’t go to bed wondering “did I inflict the daily beating today?” Most abusers are generally nice and decent… until something triggers them. Until they experience a particular stress condition. At which point abusers (and their apologists) will point to how rare the abuse is and blame the victims for causing the conditions in the first place. Civilized and mature people hold themselves responsible for their own actions, and don’t believe that it’s okay to say things like “why do you have to make me hurt you?”

” It’s only an issue if the person in question is emotionally abusive themselves or if they’re willing to let lots of people die for reasons she finds unacceptable”

TLDR: Alison tortured Max to save one person, he only refused as long as it was her asking, Alison herself admits it, denying it is trying to establish “headship” as canon as well as being a torture apologist. (Not even going to touch on how Patrick whispering painful truths into Alison’s ear to push her away is not only not considered emotional abuse by most actual abuse victims, but is also possibly the least of his many many many crimes)

“Again, people with emotional problems are allowed to have relationships.”

This isn’t about whether or not she should have a relationship, this is about whether she should be rushing off to have a happy little date and enjoy herself when Max’s entire life has been completely destroyed with him having to give up his family, friends, school, hobbies, etc just to avoid the abusive superpowered stalker, his mother is 100% justified in seeing Alison as someone who needs to be ENDED, and it just happened in the last 24 hours. You don’t get to “move on” from your misdeeds when your victims haven’t even had enough time to unpack their things in the safehouse they’ve relocated to.

“How is wallowing in shame going to help Max in any way? It wont help Alison either.”

That last paragraph would be the only thing you’ve said here that isn’t a rehash of “Alison is justified in everything she does because she’s the heroine.” And to answer that: Guilt and shame are a form of PAIN. And pain is a message. The message is “don’t do the thing that makes you feel me.” Pain can be a friend in that regard. To face it is to become stronger.

Will facing her shame help Max? No, it won’t – what’s done is done, she’s broken it and can’t fix it and that’s something she’ll never be able to change. But it will help Alison – and despite what you claim, I actually am rooting for Alison. I’m rooting for her to grow, to mature, to become more than a spoiled selfish brat who thinks “I know what’s best, and that justifies everything I do! I will make people help me save the world even if I have to use violence!” You know, like the perpetrators of all the greatest and most horrific atrocities in history all thought. But she should NOT be taking a break from it. It’s only been 24 hours since she brutally tortured and terrorized a powerful and dangerous woman’s son to get what she wanted. She needs to be facing her shame AND preparing for the future retaliation.

(Also, I made a point of not using the word “guilt” because I feel that guilt and shame are subtly but definitively different things. Guilt is what other people want you to feel, in order to manipulate you. “I’m suffering and other people are hurting and you should feel bad about it!” Shame is when you have done something that you genuinely know to be wrong. Shame is what you feel when no one is trying to guilt trip you into feeling selfish and horrible so you’ll do whatever it is they want you to do)

He knows she’s a target because of her enemies. He doesn’t know about her psychological issues that she really needs to be addressing. That’s not even touching on how she has just pissed off what is quite likely to be the deadliest enemy she’s ever dealt with thus far (Max’s politician mother).

But essentially Alison is like a police officer. When someone opens a romantic relationship with a police officer, they are aware that their potential lover has a dangerous job that may even involve enemies following them home because they’re criminal jerks. What they may not necessarily be aware of is that their potential lover has anger management issues, a pattern of unwarranted violence that they’re invariably quick to justify, and a penchant for physically assaulting previous ex-lovers (who all deserved it, of course).

Clevin does NOT know what he’s getting into – Alison is withholding critical information because her immediate comfort is more important than his future welfare and happiness. As stated elsewhere: I speak as someone with neurochemical/psychological conditions in a romantic relationship. She is being irresponsible and selfish.

“She has a temper, shock, horror! It’s a psychological issue she shares with 99.9% of the human race,”

99.9% of the human race are not automatically resorting to physical violence against targets lacking the ability to defend themselves or retaliate. The fact that she gets angry is not the issue, the fact that her response to becoming angry is to smash something is the issue.

” Patrick manipulated her into the loss of control, and she tries to fight back from it – so she’s the victim not the abuser”

Once again you blame the victim. “They made me mad! I had every right to hurt them! I was just defending myself against their mean words! They’re the bad guy! That’s why the cops should be arresting them for saying mean things!”

“And before claiming special authority in an argument, check whether your disputant can claim the same, or more.”

Great. You say you have a neurochemical condition of your own? Did you enter into a relationship with someone without warning them that it might be a bit trickier than they expect? Did you show that you care about them by making certain it wouldn’t come as a nasty surprise? Or did you do what Alison is doing, by putting your immediate comfort first and expecting them to deal with it?

“Neither is Alison, we have precisely one incident when she was manipulated into violence, and rather than bring the building down, she threw a mug.”

We’ve seen numerous incidents in which she was “manipulated” into violence. Most of them were the defense of herself or of others. Some were less so.

“Patrick deliberately manipulated Alison into an explosive loss of temper. ”

If you say something offensive and I punch you in the mouth, then I’m the one who gets arrested. And (assuming your claim that Patrick deliberately goaded the superstrong and violence-prone person into attacking his comparatively frail form is even remotely accurate) if you say something offensive with the exact intention of provoking violence, then if I resort to violence – you’ve accomplished your goals. Which begs the question: what did Patrick hope to achieve by persuading Ms “loves to fight and kill” to attack him?

“And if you dismiss the seriousness of psychological abuse it’s clear you’ve never faced it.”

I spent the first quarter century of my life as a psychological punching bag for members my family. Most of my years in the education system involved dealing with bullies at all levels, from physically inferior twerps who knew how to work the system (see my above statement about goading others into violence) to actual teachers who got off on treating students like crap (And that’s not even counting when I was brought in to fill the heavyweight slot for a varsity wrestling team. Those pubescent thugs made baboons look like a christian reading group). Yeah, I know what psychological abuse is like. I also know that it generally happens in situations where the victim is powerless to respond effectively. I.e. situations other than what Alison has been seen in.

“And there we are again with you insisting anyone who has any kind of MH issue or neurodiversity can’t safely have a relationship and is selfish to try.”

As I stated a week ago, I’ve got “neurodiversity.” Except my particular condition isn’t something cute and photogenic and seen on TV or video games with a character who is brilliant but eccentric. I’ve got one of those “ugly” conditions that it is still, to this day, socially acceptable to make fun of – and that includes teachers jumping in on the bandwagon. When I saw my condition being showcased in an episode of “South Park,” I was genuinely delighted – because it was the most respectful, well researched, and accurate depiction I had ever seen.

In other words, this is a fellow “neurudiverse” individual calling you out on your crap – MY issues are no one else’s fault or responsibility, including that of my romantic partner. I do NOT have the right to use my condition as an excuse for why other people should have to take on additional stress and frustration on my behalf.

I’d say the best way to sum it up would be what a woman with bipolar disorder said during a heated exchange with a fellow gamer with OCD who was complaining about the “day jobs” feature in City of Heroes. “I learned long ago that it’s MY job to adjust to the world, not the world’s job to adjust to me.”

I’m glad you provided that link because I’d been looking for it. I think you actually need to go back a couple of pages further to http://strongfemaleprotagonist.com/issue-5/page-110/ to get the essential context that Patrick deliberately manipulated her into a loss of temper when she challenged him that he isn’t the evil villain he likes to paint himself. And remember, Patrick doesn’t cause people to do anything accidentally. I’ve been there, a lot of the bullying I faced at school was deliberately intended to push me into a meltdown and violent loss of temper.

If someone deliberately pushes you to a place where they know you will violently lose your temper, are you the abuser, or are they?

And as I read the scene she doesn’t throw him across the room, he does it himself when she visibly erupts (some form of levelling up?) So the only two acts of violence, other than the verbal ones from Patrick, are the table smashing, which is temper defusing, and the mug throwing, which she’s certainly chagrined by. I’d forgotten there was that reaction frame between it hitting Patrick and her exit.

And getting back to whether Clevin is safe, I’d say they chances of him deliberately manipulating her into a loss of temper are probably fairly slim.