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Aresius It seems Menace is trying to escape his doom. Also we don’t know what’s going on with Keeper and Sentinel… PS: I like to imagine the dog is telling Lord Boy he’s been a bad, bad boy in a really infernal, caps lock voice xD Tylikcat Lord Boy so badly needs to embrace the Puppers. …that sentence. Gotham “My job here is done! Once again, the day is saved.” MEANWHILE Patrick dies of a brain hemorrhage Sterling Ericsson What are you going to do with yourself when he’s more or less fine after all this and has access to his emotions again? Olivier Faure I think the consensus among the don’t-destroy-the-barriers people is that, if destroying the barriers ends up being perfectly healthy and the right thing to do all along, we’ll be super annoyed, for the same reason that people would be annoyed if Allison found the guy responsible for all the racism and punched him and ended racism. Sterling Ericsson I mean, I find it likely that he’s going to need to deal with having to face his traumas for real now, with an adult mindset rather than that of a child’s. And that will be hard, difficult, and painful. That’s basically a given as something he’ll have to go through. I’m not sure what else you expect destroying the emotional facade holding him back from feeling true emotions will do? It’s possible that it will cause a problem with all the copied minds he has in the city. No idea what that will do, since it’s unique to his power. But in none of that do I expect some sort of physical issue (beyond the storyline-based unconsciousness I already mentioned). Devon Jolly there’s the part where he’s caused Allison to hemmorage from the nose already and the damage to her was fairly minor… Given that, this should be a massive Neurological change and quite capable of being deadly. Wonder if a blood transfusion from Feral would fix that? Sterling Ericsson That’s more an example of his own ability harming others. I wouldn’t expect it to do the same to himself. Olivier Faure The thing is, Allison doesn’t *know* that the walls are (a metaphor for) an emotional façade holding him back from true emotions; and if they are, she doesn’t know they aren’t that *and also* (a metaphor for) a vital irreplaceable structure of Patrick’s psychology. The comic is strongly hinting that the walls are what you said, but if I were actually confronted with this situation, I would never, ever do what Allison is doing with the information she has. (leaving aside the “I have do something before Patrick mind-kills me and Feral even if the something breaks Patrick” argument) More generally, I’m on the “give advice to trauma survivors but overall assume that they know more about their brains than I do” side of this fence. Sterling Ericsson But then that last thing you said falls back onto how Patrick specifically told her to do something and to not worry, that he’d get better eventually after she fixed him. Olivier Faure Why do people keep getting back to that? Again, I get it makes sense in a narrative context, but from Alison’s POV, she got that (very ambiguous) message in between Mega Girl snarking at her and carrying luggage in the middle of mirror-people. We don’t *know* if Patrick sent it, and we don’t know at all if he was in full possession of his mental faculties at the time. She could have dreamed up the message, the message could have come from Gurwara, the message could have come from Patrick but she could be missing vital context, etc. It doesn’t come anywhere near qualifying as consent, or reasonable assurance that Alison’s actions will turn out okay (again, disregarding narrative causality). Amelie I could forgive if Patrick himself has made it easy to have his emotional barriers torn down because he built this extremely solid, coherent and easily comprehensible metaphor for his mind, and only needed an outside agent who’s not afraid to do it for him, which his power also made it possible for him to have. Although it’s still a little convenient if it works out perfectly for everyone when, as I believe, Alison is doing the only thing she can think of that might keep him from killing her. Sterling Ericsson Having a wall to break IS basically the most basic metaphor for tearing down someone’s emotional barriers that one could come up with. And is perfectly suited for her to accomplish. It really does make me wonder how much of the city is normally represented like this and how much of it is only looking like this in her perception. Brandon Quina I’m not sure what the protest is all about, honestly. Racism Man is a well known member of Allison’s Rogue Gallery, right up there with Poverty Boy and The Opium Epidemic. Zac Caslar Really? “Oh no someone did something for a single person and it worked how is this ok?” What’s the principle here? Ibrinar Personally I don’t mind but I would assume the principle is that a super simplistic solution by someone who has no real understanding of the problem and can’t really tell whether their solution would solve it or make everything worse isn’t automatically made better by the author letting it work. Well the racism guy thing only captures the simplistic part and that the author letting it work isn’t the same as it being a good choice just that the author considers it one.. Jeremy It seems like a lot of the commentators read the comic because they enjoy finding new reasons to hate Alison. It seems like an odd reason to follow a comic, but hey, whatever floats each of our respective boats. Gotham I am both all for destroying barriers and one to snark about Alison’s heroism Also a very joky person FM-96 If you discharge a firearm into a crowd without aiming, and you happen to hit the one guy in the crowd that’s a terrorist planning to blow himself up, then yes, you just saved the day. But that doesn’t change the fact that what you did was reckless, idiotic, and criminal. That’s how I feel about what Alison’s doing here. I think that Patrick is going to be fine, but there’s really no way for Alison to know that. She’s just guessing and justifying her actions with pseudo-philosophical ramblings. Simons Mith I’d grant you that complaint, but only if you can answer one question: What are Alison’s alternatives? Especially within the narrative and genre constraints of a superhero story? In superhero stories, smashing things does tend to be how this kind of problem gets fixed. After all, the fix has to be one that can be drawn, and explained, in a few pages of the comic. FM-96 I mean, she could follow Anima’s plan? That’s an alternative. Anima sounds like she knows what she’s talking about at least as much as Alison, but all things considered Anima probably knows more about how telepaths work than Alison. (And no, I don’t consider the genre constraints a valid argument. This comic has made it pretty clear that it’s going for more than just “typical superhero story”.) freemage Except, of course, that’s just substituting one version ‘Let’s use metaphorical violence to solve this psychic/psychological issue’ for another. ‘Taking down Menace and installing Anima’ is just a different use of force to try and solve the problem–and the best real-world analogy I can come up with for it is backing a specific rebel group against a ruling force that is hostile to you. The only option for Alison that isn’t her interfering with Patrick’s psyche is simply to find a way to depart, once and for all, and let him either recover from the coma on his own, or die in it. FM-96 But I’m not against using force. What I’m against is Alison’s “let’s just fuck everything up even though I have no clue what I’m doing and everyone who presumably knows how this place works is against it” attitude. Anima’s plan is taking control of the city in order to get Patrick back in his right mind. Alison’s plan is basically wanton destruction, and then hoping that it helps. (And again, Anima is certainly more qualified to judge how their actions will affect Patrick than Alison is.) Emily Well let’s make this simpler. Anima has already shown that they can’t be trusted through their association with and obedience to Lord Boy. Regardless of the other side of things, this has become self-defense for the former Ms. Girl. I feel like there’s a certain amount of omission in this discussion, so let me try to reintroduce the bits I feel aren’t being said enough. Alison violated Patrick’s mind, yes. Patrick continually violates the minds of literally everyone around him, partly subconsciously, but also willfully. There’s a certain amount of ‘turnabout is fair play’ argument that can be applied. However, it also doesn’t look like she can just leave, either – now that she’s here, she’s here until ‘Patrick’ stops holding her. Alison’s invasion was never intended to result in this. Patrick’s collective of shoulder-angel/demon/logic/reason figures could have handed over the information she needed and she’d have left peacefully, allowing the city to continue and Patrick to live/die/other as he intended. Instead they all attempted to manipulate and/or murder her. Alison now has to choose how to respond to that threat against her person. So with that in mind, (pun entirely intended) – her actions here are entirely rational and reasonable. We’re in the territory of reasonable-response arguments of self-defense hearings. There is no simple exit that Alison can take nondestructively; without Patrick’s telepathy, she’ll likely be trapped in catgirl’s head forever. So her choice is, kill, be killed or find a way of non-fatally removing the threat to her. In this case, she’s taken the third option based on the best information available to her at the time. She’s also hoping it will help her friend, but in truth it’s the only option that’s been discussed in-strip, that would remove the threat against her person. Here’s to hoping for a good outcome. Gotham This is going to be the defense of all robbers now “When I went into that secure vault to steal diamonds, the security showed up and started threatening me. Long story short, I had to bomb the place and kill dozens plus collateral to get out unscathed. Truly, I was justified. I mean they could just have left me alone. I have been entirely rational and reasonable” I’m all for destroying barriers but let’s not use dumb arguments to cover it. a_lethe_ia well.. its more someone breaking into a vault to get a cure because the owner of a vault is mind infecting people wish shit because he has his own thing nozt under control because of a (quite understandable) self pity party and depression and trauma. alison went into his mind for fun. she did because his mind is at them momen seeping into other people and if not stopped could doom a whole lot people to executions and worse. Zorae42 Except she wasn’t robbing him? It’s more like she showed up at a friend’s house unanounced and their family let her in and had a nice conversation with her before the Dad decided that she needed to die because she’s a “bad influence” on his son and all of the ways out were locked. Gotham Uh… the conspiracy? Zorae42 Yeah, she wanted to ask him something. Last time I checked people asking for information wasn’t robbery. Gotham …so, if I ask you for change, and you suddenly fall into a coma (I tend to have that effect on people), and then plunder your wallet willy-nelly, only to find there the note of your long lost lover you kept a secret from everyone and suddenly decide to track him down and force him to be there at your awakening /very much against your very explicitly and implicitly told wishes/… it’s not robbery Zorae42 It’s not as you didn’t actually take anything from the wallet. And in that situation my family would also be threatening to kill you because of my weird hangups I’d developed over my long lost “friend” and they were afraid you’d hurt me too. So you go find the lover to fix whatever bad blood happened between us and to hopefully pacify my murderous family. And maybe it turns out the breakup was all a misunderstanding and everyone lives happily ever after. Or maybe the long lost lover was a son of a bitch and everyone is angry. Either way still not worse than letting my parents kill you. (these analogies are quite fun) Gotham So robbery and breach of privacy is fine depending not on context, but consequences. Welp. Guys, the utilitarianists are reproducing again Zorae42 What robbery? Nothing was taken, there is no robbery. Heck, Anima was fine with giving Alison the information she wanted and Record Keeper seemed happy to get the opportunity to share stuff. It wasn’t even “nonconsensual information taking”. You’re the one stripping her actions from the context of him actively hurting the people around him in the state he’s in, trying to kill her while she’s trapped in there, and her doing the only thing she can think of to stop him from doing that without straight up killing him. Meh, I personally think the context makes her decision an understandable one. And because of that I think that the consequences of her actions will demonstrate whether it was the right one. Of course, if I thought her actions were totally ridiculous/inherently wrong then I wouldn’t care whether things turned out alright or not. Like the example elsewhere about firing randomly into a crowd and happening to kill a terrorist. That’s definitely not okay. But a really great shot seeing the terrorist in the crowd and shooting in hopes to save everyone there? If he kills the terrorist then good on him, if it goes wrong then he messed up. Not sure what that makes me (probably still some flavor of utilitarian – beeeeeware). Gotham Yeah not some flavor but all-out. I’ll bring the pesticide Also, this is ANOTHER amazing excuse for robbers. “Technically I didn’t steal anything because the police caught me so let me go it’s the rules” Zorae42 I see now – you are a troll. Well at least I had fun. Gotham Oh, don’t be juvenile. If you’re actually willing to listen to my fair, constructive, long-thought out, objective, and utterly intransigent and definitive rebuttal of utilitarianism, I could go on. But as far as I can tell an argument is over once we reveal which values we’re not willing to give up, and this is your terrible, terrible, terrible one. There’s nothing else to say. Zorae42 Oh no, not calling you a troll because of our differing moral values making it terribly difficult to have a meaningful philosophical discussion. I get that and find it amusing to agree to disagree with whimsical jokes. But because you still insist on saying Alison’s desire to get the conspiracy information was robbery when Anima and Record Keeper gave their consent to her for it. And Lord Boy wants her dead for completely unrelated issues. Gotham So unrelated in fact that it has nothing to do with our discussion. I’m going to be more lenient that I should and agree that Anima or RK willing to give out the info is equivalent to Patrick willing to do so, which is far from being a given. First off, Anima accepted under duress, only because that was Alison’s condition for helping. Second, and here’s an analogy I will hate myself for doing: if you rape someone sleeping and when they wake up they realize they’re into it, /it’s still rape/ Is it really that hard to accept that to dive into someone’s brain is the most intrusive thing there is? Olivier Faure I think the “Allison has no choice” argument is kind of unfair. That’s clearly not the issue we’re discussing. Allison didn’t even tell Patrick “and I have no choice because you’re trying to kill me”, she said “Go read a book and you’ll understand why what I’m doing is good for you”. If the danger she was in was her primary concern, Allison could have opened with “Release me or else I’ll destroy your walls”. Nobody is saying Allison breaking the walls is criminally reckless in the context of self-defense; it’s criminally reckless *in the context of trying to help Patrick*. FM-96 Sorry, I know this is rather off-topic, but I’ve seen you do this multiple times now. Her name is “Alison”, not “Allison”. (On-topic, you’ve already said pretty much everything I wanted to say, so I can’t really add anything more to that.) Olivier Faure … AAAAAAAAAAAAARGH! But it would make so much sense to have a double ‘l’!!! (I’ll pay more attention, thanks) Giacomo Bandini Not at all. Or Alison’s mental equivalent of an electroshock gives Patrick a little sanity and a little morality, so he can stop being a danger to others, or he’ll get lobotomized, for real, by the government. This is not the marvel comic universe, there are no psychic inibitors and tecnobabble like that. It’s Alison’s way, or lobotomy. Or maybe just a bullet in the brain. Weatherheight You can draw talking it out, too. Granted, it’s not exactly genre-compliant, but we sat through a tremendous number of pages of Arjun talking, and that worked out okay. Sterling Ericsson I feel like Alison has been trying that approach with the aspects. Multiple times even. It doesn’t seem to be working and they keep trying to kill her. critically_damped That’s how you should feel about pretty much ANY super-empowered individual who decides to use their powers to help someone else. Nobody acts in full knowledge, and the innocent person that Captain America saves may grow up to be the next Hitler tomorrow. Isaac Burke There’s a difference between never taking *any* action if there’s even an astronomically small chance of anything going wrong, and not assaulting people against their will with the equivalent of mind-altering drugs on the off-chance it’ll make them less uptight. By your logic, Cap is equally justified in shooting random people because they *might* be Future Hitlers. There’s no way to be sure he’s wrong! motorfirebox Well, there’s the part where Patrick’s current state seems to be killing him already. And hurting other people, added bonus. Olivier Faure Damn, you beat me to it 😀 Liz It’s a bit of a rock and a hard place situation, though. Patrick was sending out unintended psychic attacks when he stumbled to Allison’s door and then ultimately collapsed into unconsciousness. Presumably, his condition would only worsen without any intervention. Since government doctor intervention isn’t an option, it’s either this or Patrick’s condition continues to deteriorate and possibly start seriously hurting the people around him. Weatherheight Government doctor intervention is an option, just one with a lot of consequences Alison doesn’t want to face, both from a criminal and personal point of view. Aiding and abetting a fugitive and dereliction of duty leap to mind. Not to mention how embarrassing it would be to have to admit that you let the mastermind known as Menace get away because he was cute and had a really cool conspiracy theory and he’s so angsty! Tough as this path is that she’s on, turning Patrick in is even tougher. It seems to me that she’s just digging a deeper hole here without having any guarantee that she’s really solving a problem. freemage Except, of course, she fully believes the core of the conspiracy theory. At that point, she might very well be turning over the one person who has a chance of allowing potentially ‘useful’ supers to do something positive for the world. Weatherheight She might also be providing valuable information and a valuable ally to the primary organized force of supers that can reasonably confront / expose / dismantle The Conspiracy while giving Patrick a “way out” of his past life. It’s not unknown for valuable assets to be co-opted into law enforcement after being convicted of crimes and incarcerated. The movie Catch Me If You Can is a particularly famous example, but I am told by my computer / programming friends that it’s happened in IT fairly often as well. Conversely, that Agency may very well be The Conspiracy, a la Witch Hunter Robin. Lots of ways this can go. freemage The problem is that ALL of Allison’s options involve shooting blind, except the one where she dumps Patrick into an alleyway to die and goes on a date with Clevin. Anyone she might turn to could either arrest him and have him executed, or kill him because they’re actually in the Conspiracy and will now assume Ally (and thus all of her associates) are potential threats as well, or maybe help him out. She had a choice between choosing a blind card, or hoping she could figure out what was going on on her own. She opted to take on the burden herself. Whether this was the right or wrong decision is impossible to know at this point–but I’m fairly certain there’s more than a few folks in the thread who would automatically assume any decision she made was the wrong one. Giacomo Bandini If she turns Patrick in, he gets lobotimized, for real. Or put into farmacological coma for the rest of his life. How else can you keep a criminally insane ex terrorist with psychic powers, who can kill even tier one byodynamics? Alison’s psychic electroshock is the best chance Patrick had.. Weatherheight “If she turns Patrick in, he gets lobotimized, for real. Or put into farmacological coma for the rest of his life. “ Entirely possible, but not guaranteed – we really don’t have any idea what assets “The Program” has available to them., technological or biodynamic. Also, Alison’s speaking up for him should hold some weight with her minders in The Program. From what we’ve seen on camera, restraint has been the order of the day, given the number of biodynamics who yet survive. I do wonder how many biodynamics have died after manifesting their abilities from maladaptive biodynamism. “How else can you keep a criminally insane ex terrorist with psychic powers, who can kill even tier one byodynamics?” Who, exactly, has Patrick himself killed with his telepathic powers? His allies have certainly killed someone and his robots have, but this instance is the first time we’ve ever seen Patrick’s telepathic powers affect anyone directly in any fashion, nor have we concrete information regarding him having killed anyone by more typical means (I will grant Mom is likely). If you mean the Public Perception, then that has some merit – but fairly often the Public Perception and the realities of public policy are often quite different. How do you keep him contained? Attempt to heal him and hope he’s grateful. While you’re doing that, you use the mass of technology you’ve accrued thus far for biodynamic containment and you study the heck out of him. Since, by Patrick’s admission, he has no mind control powers and can only affect others by using incredible verbal persuasion, a cage with Lisa’s less sophisticated robots to care for his physical needs should suffice. If it becomes apparent he’s not curable, then he can be “solutioned”. If a government / agency is willing to murder him, extended incarceration is a piece of cake – Guantanamo Bay stands as a real world example. Since biodynamism appears to have a genetic component, I have a feeling that research into gene therapy to correct it is a thing. Irony time – what if all of those “vanished biodynamics” also, like Daniel, had powers running amok and the only way to save their lives was to depower them? If Patrick is truly out of touch with reality, doesn’t that call The Conspiracy into question? If he had actual projective capabilities, the argument has merit, but this whole scenario seems to be an example of his already manifest powers to read other’s thoughts going out of control – essentially, we’ve got a mind link but no redactive or coercive capacity demonstrated. Now, if it turns out that Tara has never been asleep / unconscious and has no recollection of speaking to Alison in the flower garden, the argument will have greater merit. Giacomo Bandini Sorry for the late answer, been busy. I think you are understimating how dangerousPatrick can be, no, how dangerous Menace can be, once he restablish himself as the dominant personality, with his upgraded powers. No matter the security of the prison, Patrick could.use his mind reading to discover his vulnerabilities, and then use his projections to contact an accomplice. Sure, for now hos powers have a limitated range…. but his powers are getting strongers with time. It’s too big of a risk Weatherheight There’s a lot of projecting into the future following current trends. Unfortunately life isn’t like that all the time. a) He’s not a full range telepath at the moment; he’s a receptive, NOT a projective. So, at the moment he can’t contact anyone else. If his power develops that way, then the point is valid, but so far we’re seeing he has “I can create an analogue of the other person in my own mindscape”; that’s just an expression of his existing power of receiving and storing a copy of others. We have no actual evidence that Tara’s mindscape is its own entity/ b) You’re assuming that there’s nothing that can be done to help Patrick or that can slow, halt, roll back the acceleration of his powers. I find that hard to believe, given that (a) we’ve already had a scientist comment on genetic expression being a part of biodynamism and (b) we’re already doing significant gene therapy in the real world and we don’t have anyone remotely equivalent to the adept we’ve already seen (Lisa). It seems to me that ruling out any other adepts just because we haven’t seen them is a bit odd, since they made up a whole new category for them. That very strongly implies that there are many more of them (relatively speaking) out there. c) If there are significant robotic security measures, it’s going to take a tier one kinetic-based biodynamic to deal with them. When I speak of security measures for Patrick, it will still be maximum security and difficult to access. And since Lisa is the premier roboticist, I’, sure she’ll be happy to devise lethal failsafes and make sure Menace knows that any anomalous behavior in the security measure will result in the complex being doused in white phosphorous. Their history will guarantee that. Patrick is a very, very valuable asset. It’s worth taking a little risk to see if that asset can be brought onto the side of the angels. Now once he’s fully demonstrated he’s irredeemable, then everything you say. But he’s already modified behavior positively from where he was, which suggests he IS redeemable. Let that play out and then make a call. Giacomo Bandini A) Patrick is projecting. He is communicating with Alison right now. The same link which Patrick is using to show Alison her life history, or to convince her mind that her body is hurt, could potentially be used to send his accomplice the plan for his escape from prison, or to take hostage the U.S. PResident, or whaever. B) the narrative does not give us any indication that modern medicine can influence biodynamic powers. None at all. Biodynamics power breaks physics rules, and if there is a genetic component, well, it will probably be different for each of them. This is not the marvel universe: in the MU, powers have a clear biological component, which can be manipulated, and so you have power dampeners, mind reading disruptor, Mutant Growth Hormone, eccetera eccetera; here is different. Sure, the possibility of a biodynamic savant like Lisa, an Innate in the field of biology, who makes a breakthrough on the nature of the powers cannot be discounted, but that would change the entire setting. C) a physical tier one like Cleaver. Or a speedster like the yakuza guy. Or a photocynetic like Moon shadow. Or a size shifter like Hector. Maybe a tekeporter like Feral.s friend. Maybe even biostatics could do the job, once Menace explain them the weakness in the prison. Paint it this way: take Lex Luthor, give him ongoing growing telepatic powers, and then have iron man keep him prisoner: are you betting Tony Stark is going to keep Luthor imprisoned indefinitely? At last, i want to point you that Patrick is, for any government which should ever employ him, a terrible liability. An agent with questionable loyalty, if at all, who knows every single one of your secrets, every one of your vulnerabilities, and who has an untraceable method of divulging those information. Is it really reasonable to expect a government to invest such many resource, to have such a great risk, for what? A mind reader spy? Patrick has already tried to redeem itself, and it failed. After his stint with villany he becomes a ruthless corporate mongul, who made shady deals with yakuzas and kidnapped scientists. And after that, a psychotic self destructive killer. At this point, a relapse in full time villany seems probable. This said, i believe that long time imprisonment of Menace is not totally impossible: my point is that the quality of this life is so low -eternal surveillance with no contact with human beings if not by remote, which for him is unsettling, eccetera- that the risk posed from Alison mental electroshock could be seen as acceptable. Weatherheight OR – we’re seeing the copy of Alison in Patrick’s head interacting with Patrick inside Patrick’s head. We haven’t any evidence that can’t be placed into question because of the use of the dream sequence trope. The nose bleed page is bad plotting, in my book – it adds an unnecessary element that clouds the essential issue rather than clarifying it. They have a teams of doctors who are monitoring biodynamics. I find it difficult to believe that they’re just taking data and not experimenting as they can and performing research. If they’re not, they need to get a new team of physicians and scientists, not the palliative care specialists they’ve hired. Tony Stark? No. Reed Richards? Hell, yes!. I wouldn’t use Patrick in the field at all. He’d have a nice safe underground bunker where he could live and be used as a pre-interrogation interviewer. Interrogation requires knowing what some of the answers are before you start. There’d be a lot of protocol steps and specialized agent training required for his handlers, but he could be very, very useful if properly managed, particularly given his apparent limited range (which I admit I also question his veracity on this point). And again, he’s stated he has no coercive abilities – if we’re going to take him at his word. Which, as you seem to imply, we should not. I could easily envision a prison not only to negate Patrick’s powers and defenses to negate every one of those mentioned. Daniel is by far the biggest problem from a materials point of view, but he’s not such a problem since he’s already imprisoned. The speedster and Mary are child’s play (staged access by robots, high level thermal input at each stage followed by toxic gas followed by organic-decaying acids, bye bye biodynamics). Hector’s power is challenging, but off the top of my head I can come up with at least two ways to put a big crimp in his day (not that I need to – Hector is a good guy). It’s interesting to me that I, who think that Patrick cannot be trusted, can find plausible reasons for everything he’s done that aren’t about advancing Patrick’s personal power but are rather about protecting other people. That’s what makes him such an interesting “villain”. His motivations are suspicious, but, if we can trust his narrative, he’s a person with good intentions acting ruthlessly because the person(s) he’s opposing are even more ruthless than he. Let’s be fair – we really don’t know anything about Patrick’s business dealings and why he made the choices he did except what Lisa has told us, and feeing as if you’ve been treated unfairly does color one’s interpretation of events. I happen to agree with you that it’s likely that he’s not to be trusted, but maybe helping him change will require that someone trust him. His lack of profile in recent years gives credence that he’s turned over a new leaf; give him a chance but keep a watch. After all, Daniel seems a lot better off now, doesn’t he? Whenever I hear someone say, “We can’t take the risk!”, I always wonder what they would say if it was them under scrutiny. America imprisons (and in some cases kills) innocent people daily (well, maybe “not guilty of the crime for which they were convicted.”). I’m all for locking up people with dangerous outbursts in order to protect society, but without treatment to help (an astonishingly large percentage of criminals have disorder that can be treated medically), we’re just warehousing them and that makes better and more well-self-justified criminals (sometimes even when they weren’t criminals in the first place). Rehabilitation is hard and expensive, but we’ve seen the alternative and I’m pretty sure no one has done a cost analysis of the two options. No one wants to pay for society’s outcasts up front. But like the transmission guy says, “you can pay me now, or you can pay me later.” Gotham This excuse is a little too bold to accept considering the actual reason why she came in. Let’s not kid ourselves: had Patrick come to her house with no juicy info to plunder, she would never have gone in, vague brainwaves of doors or not. Now, consider this: Patrick arrives at her house, perfectly fine, as he used to be, and for some reason she also finds herself in her mind where it’s the same chaos regardless of his healthy above-ground state. The same sequence of events happen. Do you /dare/ bet against the absolute certainty she would still break the barrier? I mean for all we know Patrick Prime just has the flu and this has nothing to do with what’s happening down here. Giacomo Bandini She would have entered his mind anyway. Even if she had never meet him. Imagine adifferent scenario, this guy arrives to her house, and start sending this psichic attacks. For some reasons, she cannot take him to custody( dunno, maybe diplomatic reasons whatever. And obviously she cant just break his neck, she is a hero. She gets the vision of herself at the city door, and maybe she thinks “tgis dude wants me inside his mind, maybe i can stop him from psychically attacking innocents” Crazy? Of course. But HEROIC. Gotham So how is the scenario different? Someone forgot this. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/57c47000bc7c7a3aeb25540e0525294ed210965dcfb93fffa0a5f642fe19e6f2.jpg Giacomo Bandini Interesting, but that doesn t change my point. In my scenario, Alison would still have entered his mind. Gotham Yes because you said so, not because her character and motivations as defined by canon agree with it Giacomo Bandini Are you saying that in my scenario, with a delirious psychic who is sending increasingly dangerous wave of psychic energy, who cannot be killed on the spot or sent into custody, Alison would have not entered his mind? ‘That she woukd have said, “fuck it, i m not going into this wacko’s head, this psychic bomb can explode andand take down manhattan for all i care” Is this that are you saying? Gotham Hm, why can’t he be killed on the spot again? And how dangerous are these waves of seeing random doors, tangentially? It’s like, you’re assuming that if nobody else was around Alison would try to stop a bomb from exploding with an expertise she doesn’t have instead of flinging it at the sun do you not realize Alison is very good at very few things but she /knows/ which things freemage Have we ever seen Allison coldly decide to straight-up murder someone? Or is this another of your ‘joking around’ comments? Gotham …have you not read her spiel to Cleaver about how /collateral/ killing was so commonplace to her? What, think she’d have more reservations about actual threats? /Supervillainous/ threats? Giacomo Bandini A collateral killing is different from a cold blood execution. Yes, i think she woukd have some reservation about killing someone in cols blood because he is unvoluntarily hurting others. NotPatrick For reference: “You know, I just threatened to kill like several hundred people on national television, and nothing bad happened to me. They even let me come here to talk to you unescorted, no big deal.” Note, she not only threatened them, she killed the guy with the flame thrower, nonchalantly carried his corpse out of the hospital and threw it at the crowd of protesters, *then* threw a truck at them, then literally ate the discharged bullets of a terrified cop who tried to arrest her. God damn, I miss the writing of the first few chapters. “Am I supposed to be impressed that you’ve never killed anybody? What a bold moral choice from a person who’s terrified of violence and scared of going to jail! It’s like, have you ever had the option of murdering a bunch of people!? Okay, then why the FUCK am I listening to your opinion on the matter!? Every day I don’t kill a thousand fucking people, they should throw me a god-damned tickertape parade!” Giacomo Bandini I fail to see what this has to do with executing innocents in cold blood. Gotham You must be sleeping like a baby, trusting Power to at least feel bad about doing terrible things it deems “for the greater good”. Isn’t it a nice sentiment— Alison has /some reservations/ about abusing her powers! All is well Giacomo Bandini What the hell are you talking about? Giacomo Bandini I m sorry, i do not understand what are you talking about. Giacomo Bandini Because apparently he is not doing it intentionally, and it ls not very moral to kill someone who is not harming with malice. I do not know, how dangerous is to suddenly collapse while you are driving a car? Gotham It’s insane how far reaching you’re willing to go to defend Alison’s every act. On one hand it’s about how she had no other choice but doing exactly what she did and doing God knows how much harm to him in the process, on the other it’s about how she would feel terrible about it. Alison can do no wrong apparently. freemage You see those ellipses at the beginning of Allison’s speech bubble? That’s hesitation, because she does NOT actually agree with Feral’s situation. She knows Feral is worried about her, though, so she makes a promise in the moment to ease Feral’s concerns–then goes in and tries to save Patrick from himself, anyway. Gotham Right! Hesitation. That’s what determines whether a caught robber is sentenced, whether they /hesitated/ before stealing shit Scott I was thinking the same thing. That last panel just has this, I’m sure unintended, “Well, no reason to stick around and see how this turns out” vibe. freemage She’s not leaving his mind–there would be a gate, like we saw when she slipped into Feral’s psyche. This is her heading into the territory that he’s been keeping walled off for so long, to find out what’s out there, and maybe help reintegrate that with the inhabitants of the city. Sterling Ericsson She might also be heading to the library to get the Librarian to finally tell her about the conspiracy. Or she may be heading out of the barrier to find that weird green door that Lord Boy was being protective of. Gotham Can you please explain further I’m too dumb to have immediately understood that and my first comment was totally genuine not a joke thank god you cleared things out freemage Well, since Scott took you seriously and since I was responding to Scott, I’m not sure how your joking is remotely relevant. Gotham So do you not now what the words “I’m sure unintended” mean Olivier Faure THE GREEN DOOR. Vespayik If ONLY he did. Also, what is your proposed solution to the situation? Send Patrick to super-therapy? Oh wait! The people who could help him are unconscious because of him. :/ Gotham I literally have two comments on this page read them all and come back to cringe about your unwarranted snark Ian Osmond To be fair, Patrick dying of a brain hemorrhage WOULD solve many of the current problems. I mean, it would add a couple others…. MoonicaMusing I feel like Alison may have gotten so absorbed in the symbolic world here, she lost track of the fact that she just smashed all the things in someone’s literal head… Irrevenant Not all the things, just the barriers keeping out the emotions he’s avoided feeling for so long. Which… yeah. Weatherheight True, but there seems to be a lot of consequences to the city in those panels above that could reasonably have been predicted prior to crashing the walls. and that speaks directly to MoonicaMusings point. Irrevenant Legit point. po YOU MOTHER F23KING FILTHY ANIMAL- uy you mother f23king donkey ..why deny freedom of expression on religion chnl? ui u are Stinking Dirty Filthy Animal- denying freedom of expression on social media = Terrorism ..u mother f45kers Atheists Mods of religion Chnl – @MoonicaMusing:disqus @Weatherheight:disqus Weatherheight I’m usually wrong. Probably less legit than you’d suspect. 😀 uy you dirty filthy animal – Sterling Ericsson Hmm, I wonder how this will affect his aspects. Will the return of emotion combine them all into a single Patrick avatar or will they each change to be a more emotional aspect of themselves? I assume the Librarian won’t change much. I’m not sure if Lord Boy can continue existing as himself if he has to face the emotions of what he went through. Will we finally see more of the Professor? He’s been absent for a while at this point and we still know nothing about him. Though, if he isn’t an aspect and something else that invaded Patrick’s mind, we might not see him again for some time. Maybe a teaser at the end of the chapter. Weatherheight It’s also possible that instead of acting coldly and logically, they can get really angry and determined. 😀 Sterling Ericsson That’s true. Giving them back their emotions might not turn out the way Alison expects. XD I especially wonder how the Malice aspect will turn out. Weatherheight Part of me wants it to work out mostly okay. Part of me wants Patrick to look up at Alison and say, “I’ve missed you Mega-Girl.” Franklin J Gomes Patrick emotional flood seem to have the color pattern of the Portuguese flag. I am Portuguese, so it amused me. Sterling Ericsson Clearly Portugal is where all of human emotion comes from. You hoarders! Guilherme Carvalho As a Brazilian, I can confirm that all emotions ultimately come from Portugal. Bauke Saudade, especially. 😉 DaktariD Hey, I just learned about that word recently. On a science-ish blog, no less. Language variation is cool and I wish more Americans were less isolationist about learning others. http://www.lastwordonnothing.com/2018/03/16/a-vocabulary-for-the-almost-disappeared/ JohnTomato Maryland State flag. allium Needs more armillary sphere. Kerlyssa first good comment on this godforsaken thread Olivier Faure Wait, does that mean the city is built under the component “sea level”? Ominous. Sterling Ericsson Hmm…do held back emotions build up over time is an interesting question. Did he have to make the walls higher and higher to keep staving off himself from feeling anything, even while his need to feel emotions grew more and more? The Warrior of Many Faces Sounds about right, given my admittedly limited understanding of how suppressed emotions work. AbacusWizard IT’S THE PUPPER!!! 😀 boromir Okay but exposing someone with that much repressed stuff to all of it at once comes with a pretty high risk that he’s going to do a LOT of damage, and considering the guy tends toward supervillainy to begin with, this just seems like a dangerously bad move. Ian Osmond ALL possible moves, including doing nothing, are dangerously bad moves here. It’s just a question of which dangerously bad move do you choose? Guilherme Carvalho Ok. Cool. So that’s done. Right. So, uh… how do you get out again? Sterling Ericsson Hopefully once things settle down. Barring that, the Librarian might be able to help. Or the Green Door outside of the barrier is an option. Abel Undercity “YOOOUUUU ARRRRRRE THE BOOOOYYYYYYYYY!” Eternal Lalala, just destroying someone’s mind. Nothing to see here Aresius Also, did you see? There’s life beyond the walls, and it looks a lot like Feral’s world 😀 Frank “Hey, I know you have a lot of repressed traumatic experiences, but I really need you to feel all of them now.” This is assault. It will tear his mind apart. Regardless of how he ends up, she didn’t have the right to do it. Yet she did. Amelie Let’s not forget Alison is apparently trapped in brainspace with a man who’s explained at great length why he thinks he needs to kill her while her body is bleeding a lot. Tylikcat If she did it in the middle of a big battle, we’d all be like “Meh, things happen.” That she had a restful time out in Tara’s brain, and came back to do this in a thoughtful and considered way is stranger. Amelie Well, keeping in mind this is just my hypothesis and maybe I’m reading too much into the fact we haven’t seen any indication Alison has a way to get back into her own body, it’s like if you or I were locked inside a house with an eight year old having hidden the keys, having an emotional breakdown and having a gun glued to his hand. I don’t think you could be blamed for trying to, essentially, slap him out of it rather than argue with him. Or break his neck. Hermitage Kind of her own fault for charging into his brain to ransack it for whatever info she wanted, with no plan for how to get out. Jumping into a telepath’s brain during an obvious psychological break seems like a supppppper terrible idea if you have no experience with such things. She’s a foreign body and his mental immune system is trying to annihilate her, I can’t get too upset at that? I would have dumped homeboy at the nearest hospital, or just thrown him jail as Allison threatened previously. Amelie But nobody on Earth has any experience with such things. Alison thought that he sought her out because he trusted her to help him better than anyone else, and of course she’d do it because she thinks it’s her job to do things no one else can, and she knows Patrick knows she thinks that. Sure if she had known it was an elaborate plot to murder her she could have, I guess, put him in jail with no people anywhere near for him to suck into his brain and wait for this unprecedented, dangerous change in his powers to sort itself out? Maybe before he dies? I think even knowing what we now know, we know way too little about what’s going on to decide what would have been the best course of action. And, I’m saying this to Gotham too, I think Alison is defending herself in the “least” harmful way she can. She could have tried dropping him on a desert island (if she could see the future), she could try breaking Lord Boy’s neck, but instead she’s trying to help him become the sort of person who doesn’t feel the need to kill anyone. Gotham That’s exactly what I said when I fed my neighbor’s children to him as self-defense for him vandalizing my house: truly, self-defense is always justified regardless of context or scale! Vespayik Him making both Alison and Feral conk out and Alison bleed from brain shit is also assault. zellgato That was.. remarkably easy GreatWyrmGold Patrick’s brainscape looks like a city that was bombed and then set on (8-bit) fire. This is the picture of a healthy mind. bryan rasmussen aw shit, this looks bad. I’m outta here! Dave M You know how there was supposed to be 5 Patricks, but we only saw 4? Want to bet the final Patrick is locked behind the green door, and that’s where Alison is going now? Of course, none of this explains Gurwara, but I’m getting used to that. 🙂 Margot nothing will ever explain Gurwara Weatherheight Bad sushi. Tylikcat Mushrooms. Weatherheight Bad sushi… WITH ‘shrooms. Apromor Turns out, Al just had a typical dream. Patrick wasn’t involved at all. Weatherheight “And then I woke up…” JohnTomato You tell me there’s an angel in your tree Did he say he’d come to call on me For things are getting desperate in our home Living in the parish of the restless folks I know Everybody now bring your family down to the riverside Look to the east to see where the fat stock hide Behind four walls of stone the rich man sleeps It’s time we put the flame torch to their keep Burn down the mission If we’re gonna stay alive Watch the black smoke fly to heaven See the red flame light the sky Burn down the mission Burn it down to stay alive It’s our only chance of living Take all you need to live inside Pol Subanajouy Oh hey the puppy. Good. That makes everything sweet and not ominous at all. Weatherheight The puppy looks a lot like Superman Red from back in the day. Which may not bode well at all. Noone We did it Patrick, we saved the city! Ian Osmond So, to summarize the general consensus in the comment section about this — we see no possible way this could go wrong. No way that destroying the barriers of the mind of a vastly powerful telepath whose powers just recently expanded causing him to be a vastly powerful uncontrolled projecting telepath could POSSIBLY cause any problems. Right? freemage Uh… what comment section are you reading? For every person who thinks this MIGHT turn out okay, or that Alison took a reasonable if risky course of action to try to resolve a problem that literally dumped itself on her doorstep, there’s someone utterly certain this is going to be The Worst Thing Ever and if it isn’t it’s going to be because of Plot Armor. Ian Osmond <— user of sarcasm, irony, and other related rhetorical devices… S.I. Rosenbaum K it’s been real gotta run enjoy your psychoemotional crisiiiiiiiiiiiiiiisssssssssss freemage She’s not leaving his mind. She’s going into the ‘Wilds’, the part beyond the wall. Big, big difference. Dawn Smashington I still need to know why Gurwara was in there and I’m seriously hoping she’s going now to hunt him down for a final “everyone screams philosophy at each other” showdown Jovial Contrarian Can you punch philosophy? … can you punch people -with- philosophy? Ordinary Tree You just need to duct-tape “Thus Spoke Zarathustra” and “The Communist Manifesto” to your left and right fists. StClair MORAL KOMBAAAAAT Gotham Do you think the green door is fine? Dawn Smashington My personal guess in regards to the green door is that behind it lies all the terrible things Patrick has done but I also suspect I’m wrong Otherwise, my theory on Gurwara is that A. Patrick’s powers grew, whether naturally or through Max’s fireworks help and now he can put things in other peoples’ minds, and B. Gurwara is the persona he created (or copied from a real person) with a carefully crafted image projected into the minds of anyone who looks at him I also think Max’s political powerhouse mom is a part of whatever conspiracy is occurring, and hired Patrick to kill Alison after the whole, kidnapping and threatening and using of her son stunt she pulled. I mean, I know I would be Liam Neeson levels of pissed if someone did that to members of my family Weatherheight What if all those avatars now have access to emotions for the first time and now they feel even more justified for their actions, having full access to all the emotional pain that started them down that path in the first place? What if all those avatars can now logically evaluate all those emotions that they couldn’t access before and harmonize with them, alleviating all that pain that underlies their logic constructs that allowed Menace to come into being? Or something in between… Gotham This could also have literally have no other effect than badly hurting Patrick’s brain. “JESUS ALISON WHAT THE FUCK YOU LOBOTOMIZED HIM” “But— wasn’t— I thought the barriers was a metaphor!” “NO IT WASN’T YOU JUST RANSACKED THE PLACE” Tylikcat Person(s) dealing with trauma in a really traumatic way. News at eleven. I mean, maybe she’s going to grab fifth Patrick and fly above the city with him in her arms at the chaos works itself out? …but that sounds like a scene for a different sort of comic. Ricardo Alves Junqueira Pentea As a wise man once said… https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8bca989c9d83dd3a0177a462dfc0a130c0ec978fb7b3af202e8a00876b0d200d.jpg Kaladin Stormblessed Gunnerkrigg Court (a webcomic I highly recommend) spoilers for the most recent pages ahead: It’s funny, maybe it’s because I’ve just finished a reread through all of Gunnerkrigg yesterday but I see a parallel between what’s happening between the comics right now, both have an old barrier being breached that separates “emotion” from “logic”, in Gunnerkrigg Courts case, the forest and court only represent emotion and logic, while in Patricks mind the connection is more literal. I don’t really have any other thoughts, I just thought it was an interesting coincidence that both comics were doing such simmilar things at almost exactly the same time. StClair John Williams – The Miracle of the Ark Hiram A tidal wave of fifty thousand Seymours. https://i.imgur.com/W8VpflW.gif Gotham Oh okay I thought you were making basically the greatest joke of all time by mentioning Seymour for Final Fantasy X and more specifically his ridiculous hair to describe what lies beyond the barrier. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/cf938d79df1602749becf8fbccfa070e54240708a625ba2befa9d88bd1ebb72a.jpg Walex B The big questions remain: What was Gurdwara doing inside Patrick’s memory hall removing information and then where did he go when he jumped into the stream of “component”? How did he get inside Patrick’s mind and memory hall? Teka the Budgie THE PUPPY!!!!! T^T The eyes on mini Patrick say “For years I wouldn’t let myself remember how much I loved my first friend and now it’s all coming back to me.” 🙁 Also hoping we get to see a bit of what’s outside the walls in the next page. I see snakey things in the shadows, but that may be way off. Vespayik Getting real tired of people defending Patrick for every single thing and going “oh no, poor Patrick! his own actions have led to him being in a state that harms literally everyone around him” and condemning every thing Alison does. Like, did everyone forget that Patrick is a terrible person??? And that he came to Alison for help with this? And the way he was living and thinking was harmful to himself and EVERYONE ELSE? Philip Petrunak Nah. He’s cool. Gotham Indeed, as the laws of all nations agree, bad people have no rights this is the rule Vespayik Ah yes, Alison is infringing on his right to…. do what, exactly? He’s a danger to others and himself, and unceremoniously dumped his stank ass on her doorstep. He was inviting her into his mind to do -something-, and she saw just what an absolute clusterfuck it is. He has no empathy for other human beings. Maybe this’ll fix that and he’ll stop being a selfish manipulative twit. Gotham See people this is where this sort of wild ride is leading us to, ignorance and madness. Noone I have to admit, seeing the kind of mentality Vespayik is displaying is pretty worrying. Vespayik lol and what mentality would that be? fuck off Noone That you can do whatever you want to another person as long as they are a monster. I get it, some people make you sick. That’s normal and criminals should be arrested and punished in a fair way. But you can’t just go around lobotomizing people or using them as practice for experimental medical procedures and stuff like that just because they are horrible people. They still have some rights. Also, people would be a lot more likely to engage with you if you didn’t tell them to fuck off. Vespayik Literally what are you going on about R Lex Eaton To be fair, we have no idea at this point why Patrick showed up. Maybe he needed help, maybe he decided to kill her, maybe both, maybe neither. I’m sure hoping this works out well for everyone involved, no matter what form it takes. NotPatrick So, to recap the things Patrick has done wrong: 1. He did nonspecific super-villainy things before the start of the comic, including a non-specific and unsuccessful attempt at military conquest which presumably had some number of casualties. 2. He killed some of the people responsible for the attempted burning-alive of Feral. This was of course after Allison killed the guy with the actual flamethrower, threw his dead body into the crowd of protesters, *then* threw a truck at them, *then* literally ate the discharged bullets of a terrified cop who tried to arrest her, then yelled “There’s nothing you can do to me. You should all die! You all deserve to die! Now do what I -ing say or I’m going to kill every last one of you!” 3. He’s been kind of a dick to Lisa, because he’s afraid that she’s accidentally going to cause the robot apocalypse. 4. When Allison asked for Moonshadow’s address, he spent a few minutes rambling about ethics or something first, and went more than a tad emo, before Allison apparently broke his brain with some nonsense about not being able to read his own mind, and threw a mug at him. 5. After developing a drug problem, relapsing into homelessness, his powers went on the fritz and he began projective-telephathing weird dissociative imagery at her. 6. One of the mental sub-Patrickii (or Patrickpodes) whose apparent entire purpose is protect his mind from uncomfortable memories and feelings tried unsuccessfully to kill Allison for causing uncomfortable memories and feelings. I mean, if you’re going to go all “Fantastic Voyage” in the first place, it’s not their fault when white blood cells start attacking your tiny little ship. Gotham I feel like 1. overcasts the rest? 2. might even be a lie he told at the moment to make Al hate him since it seems it was his goal that day. There’s no shame in being exhaustive but yeah when people defend Patrick there’s no need to go further than “he’s a fugitive war criminal and traitor”. Now, if you’re like me and you /do/ think these are fine… Soqoma Therapy by wrecking ball. Well, alright then. Philip Petrunak He’s probably going to need actual therapy after all this. palmvos he may need it. but unless Xavier shows up, I doubt he can get any. kwerboom “When the walls come tumblin’ down.” Sorry, that was the first thing that came to my mind:) “Crumblin’ Down” by John Mellencamp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PErUiAyVoGc Darkoneko Hellsing …that dog uh. uuuuuh. Pomegranate Well- you’ve probably just broken Patrick, good job allison DaktariD Puppy! It wasn’t until the 2nd time I looked at the page that I saw the puppy Colleen Winters I wonder how much therapy he’s going to need after this… I mean, he’s got literal waves of emotion crashing down on him now and his coping mechanism of locking it away has crumbled away. ColaKitteh Patrick’s dog… T~T T_________T T~T Jeremy The look of sadness and loss on child patricks face, looking at the memory of his dog, is really powerful. The art really captures his feelings. Alynna Benhart You know Alison, maybe you could have started with a small hole in the walls. Give the Patricks a bit of time to acclimate.Then, as they try to patch that one hole while being distracted, you make a second small hole on the other side. The pressure from outside will cause the holes to fracture and cause more leaks, and eventually the whole wall will collapse, but dumping all his problems at once is uhh… probably a terrible idea. Maybe you could go kill some of his copied personalities and memories of everybody he has met, like tons of random people. It is probably healthy for him to forget 80% of peoples memories/thoughts. Or – go find Guwara?